Kodi sadzabwereranso? Kodi izi zitha kuganiziridwanso ngati funde lina lakusamuka? Olemba anthu Mikhail Denisenko ndi Yulia Florinskaya akufotokoza za malowa https://meduza.io/.
Pambuyo pa February 24, pamene dziko la Russia linayambitsa nkhondo yaikulu ku Ukraine, anthu ambiri a ku Russia anaganiza zochoka m’dzikolo. Kwa ena, iyi ndi njira yosakhalitsa. Ena amazindikira kuti mwina sadzabwereranso m’dzikolo. Ponena za anthu angati achoka ku Russia, ndi ndani mwa iwo omwe angaganizidwe kuti ndi othawa kwawo, komanso momwe zonsezi zidzakhudzire dzikolo m'tsogolomu, Meduza analankhula ndi Mikhail Denisenko, mkulu wa HSE Institute of Demography, ndi Yulia Florinskaya, wofufuza wamkulu. ku RANEPA Institute for Social Analysis and Forecasting.
Kuyankhulana ndi Mikhail Denisenko kunachitika pamaso pa kuukira kwa Russia ku Ukraine, ndi Yulia Florinskaya itatha nkhondo.
- Kodi mungayerekeze kale kuti ndi anthu angati omwe adachoka ku Russia pambuyo pa February 24?
Julia Florinskaya: Ndilibe kuyerekezera - ngakhale kolondola kapena kolakwika. Ndi zambiri za dongosolo la manambala. Dongosolo langa la manambala ndi anthu pafupifupi 150 zikwi.
Chifukwa chiyani ndikunena choncho? Zonse zimatengera pafupifupi ziwerengero zomwe zidatchulidwa. Anthu amene ananyamuka ku Russia kupita ku Georgia kwa mlungu woyamba [wa nkhondoyo] anali 25,000. Panali chiwerengero cha 30-50 zikwi omwe adachoka ku Armenia [kuyambira kumapeto kwa February mpaka kumayambiriro kwa April]. Pafupifupi 15 zikwi, malinga ndi deta atsopano, analowa Israel. Malingana ndi ziwerengerozi - popeza kuzungulira kwa mayiko kumene anthu adachoka ndi ochepa - ndikuganiza kuti m'masabata awiri oyambirira panali anthu 100,000 omwe adachoka. Mwina pofika kumapeto kwa March - chiyambi cha April, 150 zikwi, kuphatikizapo omwe anali kunja [pa nthawi yomwe kuukira kunayamba] ndipo sanabwerere.
Tsopano akuyesera kuyerekezera mamiliyoni, 500, 300 zikwi. Sindikuganiza m'magulu amenewo - ndipo momwe kuyerekezera uku kumapangidwira kumawoneka ngati kokayikitsa kwa ine. Mwachitsanzo, kafukufuku wochitidwa ndi [ntchito yabwino yaku Russia] Mitya Aleshkovsky: adangotenga manambala awa - 25 zikwi anapita ku Georgia sabata yoyamba - ndipo adaganiza kuti sabata yachiwiri panalinso 25 zikwi. Ndipo popeza 15% mwa omwe adafunsidwawo anali ochokera ku Georgia, adawerengera ndikuti: zikutanthauza kuti 300,000 adachoka [ku Russia].
Koma izi sizinachitike, chifukwa ngati muli ndi 25 zikwi sabata yoyamba, palibe amene adanena kuti zidzakhala chimodzimodzi kachiwiri. Kachiwiri, ngati 15% aku Georgia adakuyankhani, izi sizikutanthauza kuti pali 15% ya onse omwe adachoka ku Russia panthawiyi. Zonsezi zalembedwa ndi mphanda pamadzi.
- Tsiku lina, deta inawonekera pa webusaiti ya ziwerengero za boma pa kuwoloka malire ndi anthu a ku Russia m'miyezi itatu yoyamba ya 2022. Kodi samapereka lingaliro la chiwerengero cha omwe adachoka?
Florinskaya: Deta iyi sikuwonetsa kalikonse. Izi zikungochoka m'dzikoli (popanda deta pa chiwerengero cha omwe adalowa ku Russia kumbuyo - pafupifupi Meduza) - ndi kotala, ndiko, kuphatikizapo maholide a Chaka Chatsopano.
Mwachitsanzo, anthu 20,000 ochulukirapo adachoka ku Armenia kuposa 2020 (COVID isanachitike [ku Russia]), kapena 30,000 kuposa mu 2019. Ku Turkey - kwenikweni, chiwerengero chofanana ndi cha 2019. Koma mu 2021, panali enanso 100,000 [ amene amapita kumeneko], popeza maiko ena onse anatsekedwa.
Ponseponse, anthu 3.9 miliyoni adachoka ku Russia kotala loyamba la 2022, 8.4 miliyoni mu 2019, ndi 7.6 miliyoni mu 2020. Mu 2021 kokha, pamtunda wa covid, panali ochepa - 2.7 miliyoni. Koma izi ndi zomveka.
- Ndipo kodi deta yeniyeni ya iwo omwe achoka idzawonekera liti?
Florinskaya: Mwinanso padzakhala kuyerekezera kwina, monga Georgia adapereka pakuwoloka malire ake (mwachitsanzo, kumapeto kwa Marichi, Unduna wa Zam'kati wa Georgia unanena kuti nzika za 35 za Russian Federation zidalowa mdziko muno mwezi umodzi, 20.7). zikwi zatsala; sizinafotokozedwe). Koma ziwerengero zovomerezeka siziwoneka chaka chino.
Apanso, uku ndikuwoloka malire. Izi sizikutanthauza kuti anthu atsala. Pakati pa omwe adalowa ku Georgia, pali omwe adalowa koyamba ku Armenia kapena, mwachitsanzo, ku Turkey.
- Malinga ndi kuyerekezera kwa UN, kuyambira 2021, pafupifupi 11 miliyoni ochokera ku Russia amakhala kunja - ichi ndi chiwerengero chachitatu padziko lapansi pambuyo pa India ndi Mexico. Kodi deta iyi ndi yolondola bwanji?
Mikhail Denisenko: Tikamalankhula za zochitika zilizonse zamagulu, ziwerengero ziyenera kumveka. Pali ziwerengero zathu zakusamuka, pali akunja, pali mabungwe apadziko lonse lapansi. Tikamagwiritsa ntchito manambala ndipo sitikudziwa matanthauzo ake, izi zimabweretsa zochitika zamtundu uliwonse.
Kodi kuwunika kwa UN ndi chiyani? Kodi anthu osamukira kumayiko ena amawafotokozera bwanji? Munthu wosamukira kudziko lina ndi munthu amene anabadwira m’dziko lina n’kumakhala m’dziko lina (kusamuka koteroko nthaŵi zina kumatchedwa kusamuka kwa moyo wonse). Ndipo ziwerengero za UN zimangotengera izi - ndizo za anthu omwe anabadwira ku Russia, koma amakhala kunja kwake.
Zomwe zili m'ziwerengerozi sizikugwirizana ndi ine komanso akatswiri ambiri? Kusamuka kwa moyo wonse [malinga ndi UN] kumaphatikizaponso amene anachoka ku Russia [ku maiko ogwirizana] m’nyengo ya Soviet Union. Chifukwa chake, ziwerengerozi [za anthu osamukira ku Russia], komanso zotsalira (zoti osamukira ku 12 miliyoni amakhala ku Russia), ziyenera kusamaliridwa. Chifukwa pali anthu… Mwachitsanzo, sindinabadwire ku Russia. Ndipo m’ziwerengerozi, ndimagwera m’chiŵerengero cha osamukira kudziko lina. Palibe amene amasamala kuti ndakhala ku Russia kuyambira ndili ndi zaka zisanu ndi chimodzi, ndipo makolo anga adangogwira ntchito kunja [RF].
Choncho, chiwerengero cha 11 miliyoni ndi choopsa. Zimapanga chinyengo chakuti anthu ambiri adasamuka posachedwa.
Ine ndi anzanga tili ndi buku lamutu wakuti “Migrations from the Newly Independent States. Zaka 25 kuchokera pamene Soviet Union inagwa. Malingana ndi kuyerekezera kwathu, kuyambira kumapeto kwa zaka za m'ma 1980 mpaka 2017 kuphatikizapo, pali anthu pafupifupi mamiliyoni atatu omwe anabadwira ku Russia ndipo amakhala kumayiko akutali. Izi sizikutanthauza kuti 11 miliyoni [monga momwe ziliri mu UN], koma atatu. Chifukwa chake, ngati mugwiritsa ntchito ziwerengero za UN, muyenera, ngati kuli kotheka, kuchotsa maiko omwe kale anali maiko a Soviet. Izo zidzakhala zolondola kwambiri. Mwachitsanzo, anthu ambiri anabadwira ku Russia ndipo anasamukira ku Ukraine m’nthawi ya ulamuliro wa Soviet Union. Kapena tengani anthu "olangidwa": Anthu aku Latvia ndi aku Lithuania adabwerera kuchokera ku ukapolo ndi ana omwe anabadwira ku Russia.
- Amapeza kuti zowerengera zakusamuka?
Denisenko: Pali malingaliro awiri mu ziwerengero zakusamuka: kusamuka kwakuyenda ndi kusamuka kwa katundu, mwachitsanzo, kutuluka ndi chiwerengero.
Ziwerengero za UN ndi manambala chabe. Kalembera ikuchitika, momwe muli funso lokhudza malo obadwira. Kupitilira apo, UN imasonkhanitsa zidziwitso kuchokera kumayiko onse komwe kalembera adachitika ndikupanga kuyerekezera kwake. M'mayiko omwe mulibe kalembera (awa ndi mayiko osauka kapena, tinene, North Korea), kulibenso othawa kwawo. [Pakalembera] pakhoza kukhala mafunso ena: “Munabwera liti kudzikoli?” ndi “Kuchokera kudziko liti?” Amayenga zambiri za osamukira kumayiko ena ndipo, makamaka, amatipatsa lingaliro lakuyenda.
Kafukufuku woimira dziko lonse amachitidwanso. Nthawi zambiri ndimadandaula ku United States, chifukwa, kuchokera kumalingaliro anga, ziwerengero zakusamuka zimakonzedwa bwino kumeneko. Kafukufuku wa anthu a ku America amachitika kumeneko chaka chilichonse - ndipo kuchokera ku deta iyi ndikhoza kupeza zambiri, kunena, za anthu angati ochokera ku Russia omwe ali m'dzikoli.
Zambiri zoyenda zitha kupezeka kuchokera kumagwero oyang'anira. Tili ndi utumiki uwu wa malire (umapereka chidziwitso chokhudza kuwoloka malire, kumene mukupita ndi chifukwa chiyani) ndi ntchito yosamukira (imasonkhanitsa zambiri za omwe adabwera, kuchokera kudziko liti, pa msinkhu wanji).
Koma inu nokha mukumvetsa zomwe ziwerengero zotuluka ndi: munthu yemweyo amatha kuyenda kangapo pachaka, ndipo chidziwitsocho chimasonkhanitsidwa osati za anthu, koma za kayendedwe.
Florinskaya: Ku Russia, [osamukira kudziko lina] amaŵerengedwa ndi chiŵerengero cha amene anachoka [kuchokera pakati pa okhalamo okhazikika]. Nthawi yomweyo, Rosstat amangoganizira okhawo omwe adachotsedwa. Ndipo kutali ndi onse aku Russia omwe amasamuka amachotsedwa m'kaundulayu. Monganso si onse amene amachoka m’dzikolo amene amapita kumayiko ena. Choncho, sitepe yoyamba ndiyo kuzindikira [mu data ya Rosstat] nzika zaku Russia zomwe zachotsedwa ndikuchoka kumayiko akumadzulo (kumene kusamuka kumapita makamaka), ndikuwerengera chiwerengero chawo. Asanachitike covid, panali 15-17 zikwizikwi pachaka.
Komabe, ambiri amachoka popanda kulengeza kuchoka kwawo mwanjira iliyonse, kotero ndi chizolowezi kuwerengera malinga ndi deta ya mayiko omwe akukhala nawo. Ndizosiyana kangapo ndi deta ya Rosstat. Kusiyanaku kumadalira dzikolo, m'zaka zina [zambiri za dziko lokhalamo] zinali zazikulu katatu, kasanu ngakhalenso 20 kuposa zomwe Rosstat adalemba [popita kudziko lino]. Pa avareji, mutha kuchulukitsa ndi ziwerengero zisanu kapena zisanu ndi chimodzi [Rosstat pafupifupi 15-17 zikwi osamukira pachaka].
Kale ku Russia, osamukira kumayiko ena ankaganiziridwa mosiyana.
KOMA AS?
Denisenko: Pali mfundo yopatulika mu maphunziro osamukira kuti ndi bwino kuphunzira kusamuka malinga ndi ziwerengero za mayiko ndi zigawo zolandirira alendo. Timafunika umboni wosonyeza kuti munthuyo wachoka kapena wafika. Nthawi zambiri umboni woti adachoka supezeka. Mukumvetsa: munthu amachoka ku Moscow kupita ku United States, amalandira khadi lobiriwira, ndipo ku Moscow ali ndi nyumba, ngakhale ntchito. Ndipo ziwerengero [za Russia] sizikuwona izi. Koma ku United States (ndi mayiko ena), ayenera kulembetsa. Choncho, ziwerengero zolandirira ndizolondola.
Ndipo apa pali vuto lina: ndani angatchedwe kusamuka? Ndani adabwera? Ndipo ngati si aliyense, ndiye ndani? Mu States, mwachitsanzo, mudalandira khadi lobiriwira - ndinu osamukira. N'chimodzimodzinso ku Australia ndi Canada. Ku Ulaya, ngati mulandira chilolezo chokhalamo kwa nthawi inayake, makamaka yaitali (miyezi isanu ndi inayi kapena 12 yomweyi), muli ndi udindo wa kusamuka.
Ku Russia, ndondomekoyi ndi yofanana ndi ya ku Ulaya. Timagwiritsa ntchito muyezo kwakanthawi: ngati munthu abwera ku Russia kwa miyezi isanu ndi inayi kapena kupitilira apo, amagwera anthu otchedwa okhazikika. Ndipo kaŵirikaŵiri nambala imeneyi [miyezi isanu ndi inayi] imazindikiridwa ndi kusamuka, ngakhale kuti munthu angabwere kwa zaka ziŵiri ndiyeno kubwerera m’mbuyo.
Florinskaya: Ngati titenga zidziwitso za kazembe wamayiko akumayiko akunja osamukira kumayiko ena, ndiye kuti kumapeto kwa 2021, nzika zaku Russia pafupifupi miliyoni imodzi ndi theka zidalembetsedwa ndi zolemba za kazembe. Monga lamulo, sikuti aliyense amafika pa kalembera wa kazembe. Koma, kumbali ina, si onse omwe amajambulidwa akabwerera [ku Russia].
Mutha kuyang'ananso kuti ndi anthu angati omwe adadziwitsa [malamulo aku Russia] za chiphaso chachiwiri chokhala nzika kapena chilolezo chokhalamo kuyambira 2014, pomwe adakakamizidwa. Pafupifupi anthu miliyoni miliyoni ochokera m'mayiko osamukira kumayiko ena [ochokera ku Russia] anadzilengeza okha m'kupita kwa zaka. Koma pali amene adachoka kale, ndithudi, iwo sanalengeze kalikonse.
Kodi ndi kuti amachoka ku Russia
- Kodi zikuwonekeratu momwe Russia idafikira chizindikiro cha anthu mamiliyoni atatu omwe adachoka (malinga ndi kuyerekezera kwanu)?
Denisenko: Inde, tikudziwa pamene anthu anayamba kuchoka, kumene anachoka komanso pazifukwa ziti. Ziwerengero zimalankhula za izo.
Kumbukirani, ku Soviet Union, kusamuka sikunali koonekeratu. Mpaka kumapeto kwa zaka za m'ma 1920, USSR inali yotseguka, kenako inatsekedwa. Nkhondo itatha, panali "zenera" laling'ono, ngakhale "zenera", lopita ku Germany kwa zaka zingapo, kenako linatsekedwa. Ndi Israeli, zonse zinali zovuta. Koma, monga lamulo, misonkhano [ya atsogoleri a Soviet] ndi pulezidenti wa ku America inachititsa kuti "zenera" linatsegulidwa kwa Israeli, ayi, ayi, ndi zikwi makumi atatu [kumanzere]. M'zaka za m'ma 1980, pamene vuto la Afghanistan linayamba, kusamuka [kuchokera ku USSR] kunasiya.
Mikhail Sergeevich Gorbachev, yemwe nthawi zambiri amatsutsidwa, sanatsegule zenera, koma zenera kwenikweni. Malamulo a Soviet adakhala okhulupirika kwambiri - osachepera [mpaka kuchoka] kwa anthu ena. Kuyambira 1987, kutulutsa kunayamba. Poyamba, zenera linali lotseguka kwa othawa kwawo amitundu - Ayuda, Ajeremani, Agiriki, Hungarians, Armenians. Poyamba, kutuluka kwake kunali kochepa, koma kenako kunayamba kuwonjezeka kwambiri.
Mavuto a m’ma 1990, ndithudi, anayamba kukankhira anthu kunja. Mwa [anthu osamukira kudziko lina] oposa mamiliyoni atatu, oposa theka anachoka chakumapeto kwa ma 1980-1990. Pafupifupi 95% - ku Germany, United States ndi Israel. Kwa gawo lalikulu la anthu omwe adachoka ku Germany ndi Israel, njira yosamukira inali kubweza. Ku United States, njira yaikulu panthawiyo inali othawa kwawo.
Kenako zinthu zinasintha, ndipo zinthu zobwezetsa anthuwa zinachepetsedwa [popeza ambiri mwa oimira mafuko ang’onoang’ono anachoka]. Ku Germany, anayamba kuchepetsa kuchuluka kwa anthu obwerera kwawo. Ngati kumayambiriro kwa zaka za m'ma 1990 75% [mwa omwe adalowa kuchokera ku Russia] anali Ajeremani, pakati pa zaka za m'ma 1990 25% okha anali Ajeremani. Ndipo ena onse - mamembala a mabanja awo - anali a Russia, Kazakhs, aliyense, koma osati Ajeremani. Mwachibadwa, [izi zingayambitse] mavuto ndi kuphatikiza, ndi chinenero - ndi zoletsa zinayamba kuyambitsidwa [kwa omwe akufuna kuchoka], makamaka m'chinenero cha Chijeremani. Sikuti aliyense adatha kuchipereka: pambuyo pake, Chijeremani si Chingerezi.
M’ma 1990, vuto lalikulu kwambiri lochoka, ndikuganiza, linali kuima pamzere ku ofesi ya kazembeyo. Panali ma consulates ochepa, kunali koyenera kuyimirira kwa nthawi yayitali - osati tsiku limodzi kapena awiri, koma sabata kapena awiri. Koma mayiko anali otseguka mokwanira [kuvomereza anthu ochokera ku USSR yakale]. Aliyense ankadziwa kuti panali anthu ambiri oyenerera ochokera ku Soviet Union. Panali mitundu yambiri yamapulogalamu, zopereka - za ophunzira, asayansi.
Ndipo kumayambiriro kwa zaka za m’ma 2000, mautumiki onsewa anatsekedwa. Dzikolo [Russia] linakhala lademokalase [poyerekeza ndi USSR], ndipo, titi, mkhalidwe wa othaŵa kwawo unafunikira kutsimikiziridwa mozama, kuti apikisane ndi ena ofuna kuchoka. Kumbali imodzi, kuyenda kwachepa, machitidwe osankhidwa awonekera. Kumbali inayi, machitidwe osankhidwawa, kwenikweni, anayamba kupanga maulendo a othawa kwawo: omwe amachoka, chifukwa chiyani komanso kuti.
Tinamaliza ndi chiyani? Adapeza "abale" panjira. Tsopano 40-50% ya osamukira ku Russia amachoka kudzera munjira yolumikizananso ndi mabanja, ndiko kuti, kusamukira kwa achibale.
Gulu lina ndi akatswiri oyenerera kwambiri: asayansi, mainjiniya, opanga mapulogalamu, othamanga, ovina a ballet, ndi zina zotero. M'zaka za m'ma 1990, anthu otchuka adachoka ku [Russia], m'ma 2000 ndi 2010, monga lamulo, achinyamata aluso. Gulu lina, lachitatu, ndi anthu olemera. Mwachitsanzo, Spain linali limodzi mwa mayiko oyamba ku Europe kulola kugulitsa nyumba kwa alendo. Tili ndi midzi yayikulu kumeneko.
Kodi funde la kusamuka ndi chiyani? Ndi mafunde otani osamukira ku Russia omwe amasiyanitsidwa?
Denisenko: Tangoganizani graph yomwe mbali yapansi, abscissa, ndi nthawi. Ife [ku Russia] tili ndi ziwerengero za kusamuka ku 1828, tsopano 2022. Ndipo pa tchatichi tikukonzekera chiwerengero cha osamukira. Pamene chiwerengero chikuwonjezeka, mtundu wa mafunde umapangidwa. Kwenikweni, izi ndi zomwe timatcha mafunde. Mafunde ndi chinthu chofunikira kwambiri chomwe chimatenga nthawi yopitilira chaka chimodzi.
Tinali ndi zokwera zingapo zotere. Yoweyula yoyamba - kumapeto kwa zaka za m'ma 1890 - chiyambi cha zaka zana. Uku ndikusamuka kwa Ayuda ndi Poland, kotero nthawi zambiri sikudziwika ngati mafunde. Koma chinali chiwombankhanga champhamvu, chochuluka kwambiri [kusamuka m'mbiri ya dziko], tinamenyana ndi anthu a ku Italy kwa malo oyamba pa chiwerengero cha anthu osamukira ku United States. Kenako fundeli linayamba kusonkhezeredwa ndi osamukira ku Russia ndi ku Ukraine. Nkhondo Yoyamba Yapadziko Lonse inathetsa zonsezi.
Yoweyula yachiwiri mu nthawi ndi woyamba, ngati ife titenge nthawi Soviet, ndi woyera kusamuka. Ndiye kusamuka kwa asilikali ndi pambuyo pa nkhondo mu 1940s-1950s. Kusamuka kwa nthawi ya 1960-1980 kumatchedwanso mafunde, ngakhale izi sizolondola. [Pa tchati] ndi mzere wowongoka, koma nthawi ndi nthawi pamakhala kuphulika, magawo. Koma zaka za m'ma 1990 zinali zovuta.
- Ndipo chinachitika n'chiyani kuti asamuke ku Russia m'zaka 20 zapitazi?
Denisenko: Kodi panali magawo aliwonse? Ndi funso labwino, koma ndizovuta kwa ine kuliyankha, chifukwa sindikuwona magawo omveka bwino [panthawiyi].
- Malinga ndi malingaliro anga, andale ambiri, omenyera ufulu ndi atolankhani adayamba kuchoka mdziko muno mu 2021. Kodi ziwerengero zikuti chiyani pankhaniyi?
Denisenko: Ndikukhumudwitsani, koma ziwerengero sizikuwona izi. Koma mwina sangaone pazifukwa zosiyanasiyana.
Ziwerengero, m'malo mwake, zimawona kuchepa kwa kayendedwe - osati kuchokera ku Russia kokha. Zachidziwikire, njira zolepherera za covid zidatengedwa [pakuyenda pakati pa mayiko]. Mwachitsanzo, ziwerengero zaku America - United States ili m'modzi mwa malo atatu apamwamba kwambiri pakusamukira ku Russia - chifukwa 2020 ikuwonetsa kuchepa kwa chiwerengero cha omwe adalowa. Kupatula omwe akuyenda pa visa yantchito. Ngati titenga olandila makhadi obiriwira, ndiye kuti palinso ocheperako. Chowonadi ndi chakuti mumafunsira khadi lobiriwira chaka chimodzi kapena ziwiri [musasamuke]. Zinthuzi ndi zofanana ku Ulaya: kuchepetsa kunachitika pafupifupi kulikonse, kupatula gulu limodzi - omwe amapita kuntchito.
- Munati ziwerengero siziwona kuwonjezeka kwa kuchoka ku Russia ku 2021. Monga momwe ndikudziwira, ambiri adachoka ku Georgia yemweyo, kumene munthu akhoza kukhala mpaka chaka popanda visa ndi udindo uliwonse. Kodi anthu oterowo sangalowe m’ziŵerengerozo?
Denisenko: Inde, ndendende. Mukhoza kupita kudziko lina kwa nthawi inayake, mwachitsanzo, pa chithandizo, ndipo musakhale pakati pa anthu okhazikika. Apanso pali vuto la kutanthauzira. Munthu amadziona ngati wosamukira kudziko lina, koma dziko silimamuona ngati wosamuka. Gulu lina ndi anthu okhala ndi mapasipoti awiri. Iwo anabwera ku Russia, ndiye chinachake sichinawathandize iwo, iwo anabwerera. Sakuphatikizidwanso mu ziwerengero.
Pambuyo pa Bolotnaya Square, ambiri adanenanso kuti amamva kuti aliyense wachoka. Ndipo zinali chabe, mwina, omwe adachoka omwe anali ndi mwayi - chilolezo chokhalamo kapena chinachake m'dziko lina. Ndiye, mwa njira, panali opaleshoni yaing'ono, koma kwenikweni kwa chaka.
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- Kodi kuchoka kwa anthu ochokera ku Russia pambuyo pa February 24 kumatchedwa mafunde?
Florinskaya: Mwinamwake, ngati ambiri mwa anthuwa sabwerera. Chifukwa ambiri adachoka kuti adikire nthawi yamantha. Komabe, ambiri a iwo anachoka kuti akagwire ntchito kutali. Kodi zimenezi zidzatheka bwanji? Ndikuganiza kuti posachedwa sizidzatheka. Muyenera kuyang'ana.
Malinga ndi chiwerengero [cha omwe adachoka], inde, izi ndi zochuluka m'mwezi umodzi. [Mlingo wa kusamuka kuchokera ku Russia m'ma 1990] sunafikebe, koma ngati chaka chikapitilira momwe chidayambira, ndiye kuti tidzakwanira bwino, mwinanso kupitilira zaka za m'ma 1990. Koma pokhapokha ngati kuchoka kudzachitika pa liwiro lomwelo monga momwe zilili tsopano - ndipo, kunena zoona, sindiri wotsimikiza za izi. Mwachidule chifukwa, kuwonjezera pa chikhumbo ndi kukankhira zinthu, palinso mikhalidwe ya mayiko omwe akukhala nawo. Zikuwoneka kwa ine kuti tsopano zakhala zovuta kwambiri kwa aliyense.
Ngakhale sitilankhula za kusamala kwa anthu omwe ali ndi pasipoti yaku Russia, koma moona mtima, ndizovuta kuchoka: ndege siziwuluka, ndizosatheka kupeza ma visa kumayiko ambiri. Panthawi imodzimodziyo, pali zovuta pakupeza zopereka, kulephera kulandira maphunziro a maphunziro. Ndipotu, ambiri a iwo amaphunzira ndi thandizo la ndalama za maphunziro. Tsopano mwayi uwu ukuchepa, chifukwa ndalama zambiri zamaphunziro zidzagawanso [ndalama] kwa othawa kwawo aku Ukraine. Izi ndi zomveka.
Ndani akuchoka ku Russia. Ndipo ndani akubwera
- Kusamuka kungachitike pazifukwa zosiyanasiyana - mwachitsanzo, zachuma, ndale, zaumwini. Kodi tikukamba za kusamuka kokakamiza?
Denisenko: Kusamuka mokakamizidwa ndipamene iwe uli, tinganene, kukankhidwira kunja kwa dziko. Nkhondo yayamba - anthu akukakamizika kuchoka. Tsoka la zachilengedwe - Chernobyl, kusefukira kwa madzi, chilala - ndi chitsanzo cha kusamuka kokakamizika. Tsankho. Njira imodzi kapena imzake, izi ndizo zonse zomwe zimagwirizana ndi lingaliro la "othawa kwawo".
Pali njira zodziwikiratu anthu othawa kwawo komanso ofunafuna chitetezo. Ngati mutenga ziwerengero, zomwe zimachokera ku Russia sizochepa. Mwachizoloŵezi, anthu ochokera ku North Caucasus, Chechen diaspora, ndi ang'onoang'ono ogonana amagwera m'menemo.
- Kodi kusamuka kwa anthu ambiri ku Russia tsopano ndi kusamuka kokakamizika?
Florinskaya: Inde. Ngakhale pakati pa omwe adachoka, pali anthu omwe adakonzekera kusamuka, koma m'tsogolomu, m'malo odekha. Anakakamizikanso kuthawa, chifukwa choopa kuti dzikolo litsekedwa, kuti alengeza za kulimbikitsa anthu, ndi zina zotero.
Tikamakamba za kusamuka mokakamizidwa, palibe nthawi ya zifukwa. Anthu amangoganiza kuti akupulumutsa miyoyo yawo. Pang'onopang'ono, pamene chiwopsezo chachindunji chadutsa, zimakhala kuti ambiri a iwo adachoka chifukwa cha zachuma ndipo sadzabwereranso. Chifukwa akudziwa bwino zomwe zidzachitike ku chuma cha Russia, kuti sangathe kugwira ntchito, kusunga moyo umene anali nawo.
Gawo lina - komanso gawo lalikulu pakuyenda uku - silingabwerere pazifukwa zandale. Chifukwa chakuti sali okonzeka kukhala m’chitaganya cha anthu opanda ufulu. Komanso, amaopa kuimbidwa mlandu mwachindunji.
Ndikuganiza kuti omwe asankha kuchoka kwamuyaya, m'malo modikirira [kunja], sadzasankhanso zopereka zabwino kwambiri. Adzapita kwinakwake komwe mungakhazikike ndikupulumuka nthawi zovutazi.
- Kodi kusamuka kumakhudza bwanji Russia pankhani yazachuma komanso zachuma?
Denisenko (anayankha funso nkhondo isanayambe, - pafupifupi. Meduza): Mukudziwa, ndikufuna kunena nthawi yomweyo kuti zimakhudza kwambiri. Tili ndi kutuluka kwa anthu aluso kwambiri komanso ophunzira, omwe timawadziwa ndi anthu. Kutsutsana ndi chiyani apa? Pali vuto m'dziko muno - kusagwirizana kwa ziyeneretso ndi malo ogwira ntchito. Munthu anamaliza maphunziro, mwachitsanzo, ku Faculty of Engineering, ndipo amagwira ntchito monga woyang'anira mu sitolo - izi ndi, pamlingo wina, kutayika kwa ndalama za anthu. Ngati tilingalira vutoli, ndiye, mwinamwake, zotayikazi zimachepetsedwa pang'ono ponena za voliyumu.
Kumbali ina, amene amachoka, angadziŵike pamlingo wotani kuno [ku Russia]? Mwina sangadzizindikire, monga momwe amachitira kumeneko [kunja], m'dziko lathu. Ngati anthu, akatswiri achoka ndikulumikizana ndi kwawo, kaya kusamutsa ndalama, kuchuluka kwazinthu zatsopano, ndi zina zotero, iyi ndi njira yachibadwa.
Florinskaya (kuyankha funso pambuyo poyambitsa nkhondo, - pafupifupi. Meduza): Kwa Russia, ndizoipa. Kuyenda kwa oyenerera osamukira kudziko lina, ndiko kuti, anthu omwe ali ndi maphunziro apamwamba, adzakhala apamwamba chaka chino kusiyana ndi zaka zapitazo.
Zikuoneka kuti n’zofanana [zopanda pake] poyerekezera ndi dziko lathu lalikulu, komabe zingakhudze. Chifukwa pali kuchoka kwakukulu kwa nzika, anthu apadera osiyanasiyana, koma ndi maphunziro apamwamba - atolankhani, akatswiri a IT, asayansi, madokotala, ndi zina zotero. Izi zitha kukhala zowononga, koma ndichedwa kwambiri kuti tinene za izi. Titha kuganiziridwa kuti ichi chidzakhala chimodzi mwazinthu zoyipa kwambiri za kusamuka kokakamizikaku, ngakhale kupitilira chiwerengero [cha anthu omwe adachoka].
Kusamuka kumeneku, chiwerengero cha anthu omwe ali ndi maphunziro apamwamba chidzasintha kwambiri. Zinali kale zazikulu - 40-50%, malinga ndi kuyerekezera kwanga, koma zidzakhala 80-90%.
- Ndani amabwera ku malo a anthu omwe anachoka ku Russia? Kodi kutayikako kumangobwezeredwa chifukwa cha anthu ena komanso osamukira kumayiko ena?
Denisenko: M'ma 1990 ndi 2000, panali wolowa m'malo. Anthu ambiri oyenerera anachokera ku ma Republic of Union. Tsopano palibe kulowetsedwa koteroko. Achinyamata amachoka, kuthekera kumatayika pamlingo wina. Uku ndi kutaya kwenikweni.
Florinskaya: ndani kuti alowe m'malo? Tidamvetsetsa za atolankhani - [olamulira] sakuwafuna. Akatswiri odziwa bwino za IT, ndikuganiza, zidzakhala zovuta kusintha. Ofufuzawo akayamba kuchoka, palibe chomwe chingachitike. Madokotala ochokera ku likulu omwe adachoka, monga mwachizolowezi, asinthidwa ndi madokotala ochokera kumadera. M'malo a ogwira ntchito opuma pantchito amakampani akuluakulu, ndikuganiza, adzatengedwanso kumadera. Amene adzakhala m'zigawo, ine sindikudziwa. Ngakhale zaka 10 zapitazo, adanena kuti Moscow ndi malo odutsa pakati pa chigawo ndi London. Izi ndi nthabwala, koma ndimomwe amapita kusamuka nthawi zonse: anthu anabwera ku Moscow, ndiyeno kuchokera kumeneko anapita ku mayiko akunja.
Ambiri mwa kusamuka [ku Russia] akadali opanda luso, choncho sizili choncho [pamene osamukira kumayiko ena angalowe m'malo mwa akatswiri omwe achoka]. Aluso kwambiri ndi oyenerera CIS amakondanso kukhala mu Russia, koma kupita ku mayiko ena. Poyamba zinali zofunika kuwakopa, koma kenako tinakweza mphuno zathu. Ndipo tsopano chifukwa chiyani apite kudziko loletsedwa, ngati mutha kugwira ntchito kumayiko ena? Ndizovuta kulingalira kuti wina angapite kuno m'mikhalidwe imeneyi.
ZOCHITIKA KU Msika WA LABOR MAKE KU RUSSIA
• Kodi tibwerera ku 1990s? Ndi anthu angati omwe posachedwapa adzakhala opanda ntchito? Chabwino, osachepera malipiro adzalipidwa? Kapena ayi? .. Akuyankha wofufuza za msika wa ntchito Vladimir Gimpelson
- Kodi pali kusintha kowonekera kale kwa anthu osamukira ku Russia omwe amagwira ntchito mpaka posachedwapa? Akupitiriza kugwira ntchito kapena akuchoka?
Florinskaya: Palibe zosintha kumayambiriro kwa Marichi. Tinayambitsa kafukufuku waung'ono woyendetsa ndege, tangopeza deta. Mbali ina imati inde, m’pofunika kuchoka [ku Russia], koma mpaka pano ndi ochepa kwambiri. Enanso amati: “Tili ndi vuto lalikulu kwambiri.”
Ndikuganiza kuti kuchuluka [kwa anthu osamukira ku Russia] kudzakhala kocheperako kuposa kale la covid. Ndipo chifukwa chakuti mwayi wobwera unalinso wovuta: matikiti amawononga ndalama zambiri, pali ndege zochepa. Koma amene ali pano adikira kuti achoke. Mwinamwake pofika chilimwe zidzakhala zoipa kwambiri kuno kuti ntchito zidzadulidwa, ndipo izi zidzakhudza anthu othawa kwawo. Koma mpaka pano izi sizikuchitika.
– Ambiri, dziko ayenera nkhawa kusamuka? Kodi akuluakulu a boma ayenera kusamala bwanji? Mukuyesera kupewa?
Denisenko: Mwachibadwa, chidwi chiyenera kuperekedwa kwa kusamuka. Chifukwa chiyani? Chifukwa kusamuka ndi chizindikiro champhamvu cha chikhalidwe ndi zachuma. Pali mawu akuti: "Anthu amavota ndi mapazi awo." Ndizowona kumayiko onse. Ngati kuyenda [kwa kusamuka] kuchulukira, ndiye kuti pali cholakwika m'boma. Asayansi akachoka, ndiye kuti pali chinachake cholakwika m’gulu la sayansi. Madokotala akuchoka - chinachake chalakwika mu bungwe la zaumoyo. Ophunzira omaliza maphunziro amachoka - chinthu chomwecho. Tiyeni tipite amagetsi - chinachake chalakwika apa. Izi ziyenera kufufuzidwa ndikuganiziridwa.
Ndondomeko ya boma iyenera kukhala yotseguka kwa iwo omwe achoka. Pasakhale zoletsa kapena zopinga. Mchitidwe woipawu subweretsa zabwino zilizonse. Tengani Soviet Union yomweyo. Panali opunduka - Nureyev, Baryshnikov ndi zina zotero. Izi ndi zotayika zosasinthika: sitinawone Baryshnikov pa siteji, sitinawone Nureyev, koma akadabwera ngati zonse zinali zachilendo.
Momwe anthu osamukira kumayiko ena amakhala komanso chifukwa chake nthawi zina amabwerera kwawo
Kodi mumaphunzira anthu omwe achoka? Kodi ndi kangati amene amachoka amatha kutengera maganizo awo n'kuyamba kusonkhana ndi dziko lina?
Denisenko (anayankha funso nkhondo isanayambe, - pafupifupi. Meduza): Ndikhoza kufotokoza maganizo a anzanga. Andrey Korobkov, pulofesa wa pa yunivesite ya Tennessee, amakamba za mutu wa Chirasha ndi America makamaka ndi [anthu a ku Russia] amene amakhala kumeneko [ku US]. Pakati pawo, chizoloŵezi chophatikizana ndi champhamvu kwambiri. Ngati Agiriki ali ogwirizana ndi chipembedzo, Ajeremani ndi mbiri yakale, ndiye athu, omwe adachoka m'ma 1990 ndi 2000, adayesa kusakaniza ndi kusungunuka momwe angathere. Kodi mukudziwa chomwe chinali? Pochepetsa kulankhulana ndi anzanga. Icho chinali chimodzi mwa zizindikiro. Monga pano? Zikuwoneka kwa ine kuti izi zikupitirirabe.
M'mayiko a ku Ulaya, mwachitsanzo ku Germany, zinthu ndi zosiyana: pali olankhula Chirasha ambiri kumeneko. Awa si akatswiri oyenerera kwambiri - kamodzi - koma anthu omwe kale anali amidzi, Ajeremani aku Russia omwe amalemekeza miyambo. Ambiri amalumikizana.
Kachiwiri, mtunda umakhalanso ndi gawo lalikulu pano: Germany ili pafupi ndi Russia. Ambiri amakhala ndi maubwenzi apamtima kwambiri ndi dziko, kotero kuti kutengeka kumachedwa. Palinso zenizeni za dzikolo: Germany ndi yaying'ono [kuposa US], pali madera okhalamo, pali asitikali ambiri akale aku Soviet.
Ku France ndi ku Italy, vuto la kutengeka limapangidwa mosiyana. Tili ndi kusamuka kwa Italy - 80% ya amayi. French - 70%. Pali anthu ambiri amene amasamukira m’banja, kutanthauza anthu amene amakwatira.
Great Britain, zikuwoneka kwa ine, akutsatira njira yofanana ndi States: pambuyo pake, anthu akuyesera kuti apange ana awo "Chingerezi". Othawa kwawo okha samaphwanya mgwirizano ndi dziko, zimakhala zovuta kuti achite izi: ambiri a iwo akadali ndi bizinesi, malo ogulitsa nyumba, abwenzi ku Russia. Koma ana awo alibe chidwi kwenikweni ndi dziko lawo, ndipo ngati ali ndi chidwi, ndiye kuti ndi lofooka.
- Malinga ndi zomwe ndawonera, ambiri mwa omwe adachoka ku Russia kuyambira 2020 mpaka 2021 amakana mwatsatanetsatane kudzitcha osamukira, ngakhale akugwirizana ndi tanthauzo ili. Izi ndizofala bwanji?
Denisenko: Munthu wosamukira kudziko lina ndi wosamukasamuka, munthu wachoka ku malo okhazikika (okhazikika, - pafupifupi. Meduza), pafupifupi kulankhula. Vladimir Ilyich Lenin sanadzione ngati wosamukira kudziko lina, ngakhale kuti anayendayenda ku Ulaya kwa nthawi yaitali - koma ankayembekezera kubwerera. Apa, mwachiwonekere, akufuna kutsindika kuti pamikhalidwe yosinthika adzabwerera kudziko.
Zikuwoneka kwa ine kuti izi ndizomwe zimafotokozera pano: amasunga chidziwitso chawo ali kunja, osayesa kubisa kapena kubisa mwanjira ina iliyonse, koma tsindikani: "Ndine Chirasha / Chiyukireniya / Chijojiya, ndidzabwereranso kudziko lakwathu. , mwina patapita zaka 20, komabe.”
Zili ngati nthawi yawo ndi mapasipoti a Nansen. Mayiko ambiri omwe azungu amasamukira kumayiko ena amaloledwa kuvomereza kukhala nzika zawo. Koma [ena] anakhalabe ndi mapasipoti a Nansen. Iwo sankadziona ngati osamukira m’mayiko azungu ndipo ankayembekezera kuti abwerera.
- Ambiri mwa omwe adachoka amapeza zomwe akufuna? Kodi pali maphunziro aliwonse okhudza kuchuluka kwa chisangalalo pakati pa omwe achoka?
Denisenko: Kafukufuku wokhudza kuchuluka kwa chisangalalo akuchitika. Koma ndikanapereka magawo ena ngati mulingo wachimwemwe.
Israeli ndi dziko labwino kuphunzira zotsatira za kusamuka kwa ife. Chifukwa ku Israel ziwerengero za osamukira ku Soviet Union zimasungidwa padera. Kodi tikuwona chiyani paziwerengerozi? Kuyambira m’ma 1990, Ayuda amene anasamukira ku Isiraeli anayamba kukhala ndi moyo wautali. Ndiko kuti, nthawi ya moyo wawo ndi yochuluka kwambiri kuposa ya Ayuda amene ali kuno [ku Russia]. Iwo aonjezera kuchuluka kwa kubadwa kwawo. Ndipo mu Soviet Union ndi Russia, Ayuda ndi gulu lotsika kwambiri kubadwa.
Palibe ziwerengero zoterezi ku States, koma pali ziwerengero zina - mwachitsanzo, zochitika zomwezo mwa anthu okalamba. Sindidzaiŵala pamene ndinali kuyimirira pamzere kaamba ka matikiti opita ku Metropolitan Opera ku New York, amayi aŵiri anaima kumbuyo kwanga. Iwo ankalankhula Chirasha, ndipo tinawadziwa bwino. Azimayiwa anali ochokera ku Leningrad. Pa nthawi ina iwo analira. Kodi mukudziwa chifukwa chake? Iwo amati: “Mukudziwa, sitikhala omasuka. Tinasamukira kuno ndipo ndife okondwa kuno. Timathandizidwa, timalandira ndalama zambiri, tikhoza kupita ku Metropolitan, koma mabwenzi athu ndi anzathu omwe adatsalira ku Leningrad amalandidwa zonsezi. Ena amwalira kale ife tili pano, ngakhale kuti ndi anzathu.”
Zizindikiro zotere zimawulula kwambiri. Ntchito, ndalama, maphunziro, ntchito ndizizindikironso. Tikuwona kuti ku States ndi Canada, a Russia pamapeto pake amakhala ndi maudindo abwino. Europe ndi chimodzimodzi.
- Kodi kusamukanso kumachitika kangati? Kodi nthawi zambiri anthu amabwerera liti ndipo n’chifukwa chiyani?
Florinskaya: Kusamukanso kunachitika, koma kangati kuchuluka kwake kumakhala kovuta kwambiri kuyerekeza. Mabizinesi apadziko lonse atakula kwambiri m’dzikoli, m’pamenenso makampani a mayiko akunja anali ochulukirachulukira, kumene amene analandira maphunziro a Azungu ankafunidwa, m’pamenenso [akatswiri achichepere] anabwereranso. Kafukufuku wapadziko lonse lapansi, ma laboratories apamwamba padziko lonse lapansi, ofufuza ambiri adabwereranso.
Zonse zikakomoka, palibenso kobwerera. Kuphatikiza apo, mulingo wina wamalipiro ndiwofunikiranso.
Kodi ambiri mwa mafundewa adzabweranso?
Florinskaya: Anthu amene amangidwa ku msika wogwira ntchito ku Russia, amene sangathe kupeza ntchito [kunja], adzabwerera chifukwa chakuti “adya” nkhokwezo, ndipo sipadzakhalanso ntchito ina. Sikuti aliyense azitha kugwira ntchito kutali ku Russia. Ndikudziwa anthu ena omwe amagwira ntchito kumakampani aku Russia omwe adakakamizika kale kubwerera. Pali makampani omwe aletsa kugwira ntchito kuchokera ku ma seva akunja. Pali ophunzira omwe sanaloledwe kuchita nawo magawo pa intaneti. Choncho, ngakhale 150 zikwi anachoka, izi sizikutanthauza kuti ena a iwo sanabwerere.
Apanso, izi sizikutanthauza kuti anthu tsopano, powona izi zonse, sakukonzekera kuchoka, koma osati muzochitika zotere. Ngati kale, isanafike nthawi ya COVID-19, anthu 100-120 zikwizikwi adachoka ku Russia pachaka, tsopano, ndizotheka kuti ziwerengero zidzafika 250 kapena 300. Zidzadalira kutha kuwoloka malire, kuchuluka kwa maulendo apandege komanso kuthekera kogwira kwinakwake m'maiko ena.
[Kale] anthu anatiuza m’mafunso ozama kuti: “Ngati ndikufunidwa, kupeza ntchito, ndiye kuti sindikuletsa kubweza kwa ine ndekha.” Koma pamene ufulu wazachuma ndi ndale ukutha m’dzikoli, anthu amene angabwerere akhoza kuchepa. Tsopano yachepa kwambiri.
Chithunzi: Kuthawa ku Crimea. 1920
