Ua haʻi aku ka luna o ka World Union of Old Believers Leonid Sevastianov ua manaʻo ʻo Pope Francis e kipa aku iā Moscow - a laila ʻo Kyiv. Ua kono mākou iā Leonid Sevastianov e haʻi i nā kikoʻī hou aku ma kēia hihia a me kāna pilina me ka Pope ma ka laulā.
JLB: ʻO kāu mau ʻōlelo e pili ana i ke kūlana o Pope Francis ma ke kaua ma Ukraine e ʻike pinepine ʻia ma ka media, a ʻoiaʻiʻo, ke hana nei ʻoe ma ke ʻano he uwao lehulehu o ka Pope. Ua aʻo hou mākou e pili ana i kona kūlana a me kāna mau hoʻolālā mai iā ʻoe ma mua o ia. Ua ʻae ʻia ʻoe e ka Makua Hemolele e hana i kēlā mau ʻōlelo?
LS: Ua ʻike koʻu ʻohana i ka Pope no 10 makahiki. ʻO kā mākou kamaʻāina me ia i hana ʻia ma ke ʻano o ka hoʻonohonoho ʻana i kahi ʻahamele no ka maluhia ma Suria ma ka Vatican ma 2013. ʻO kaʻu wahine. Svetlana Kasyan, he mea mele opera, i komo i ka 'aha mele me ka papahana solo. ʻO wau iho i hana i nā pilikia hoʻonohonoho. Mai ia manawa, ʻo ka maluhia, ka maluhia ka mea i hoʻokumu ʻia ai ko mākou pilina me ka Pope. Eia hou, ua komo pū māua me kaʻu wahine i ka māhuahua ka neʻe ʻana. I ka makahiki 2015, ua hana mākou i ka Hoʻopaʻa i ke ola Together Foundation, e hana ana e pale i ka hanohano a me nā pono o nā keiki hānau ʻole. No kāna mau hana, ua hoʻokiʻekiʻe ʻia ʻo Svetlana e Pope Francis i ke kūlana ʻo Dame of the Order of St. Sylvester. Mahalo nui wau me kaʻu wahine i ko mākou pilina me Pope Francis a ua kapa ʻia kā mākou keiki hānau hou ma hope ona. I ka hoʻomaka ʻana o ke kaua, hāʻawi ka Pope iaʻu i ka hoʻolohe e hana i ka hana o ka maluhia. ʻO wau kāna ʻelele aloha no ka hoʻolaha ʻana i ka maluhia. Ua ʻike ʻoe he Jesuit ka Pope. Hoʻoikaika ka ʻuhane Jesuits i ke kuleana o ke kanaka, ke kanaka liʻiliʻi, i kona kūʻokoʻa i ka hoʻolaha ʻana i ka ʻeuanelio a puni ka honua. ʻO Pope Francis, manaʻo wau, hilinaʻi iaʻu, me ka ʻike ʻana ʻaʻohe oʻu iwi i loko o ka lumi keʻena, a maopopo a maopopo koʻu hoʻoikaika ʻana iā ia. Ua haʻi mai ʻo Pope iaʻu ua mākaukau ʻo ia no kēlā me kēia hana i noho aliʻi ai ka maluhia ma ʻEulopa. No ia, he hōʻailona nui ka huakaʻi i Rusia a me Ukraine. Manaʻo ʻo ia e kōkua kēia huakaʻi iā Ukraine a me Russia e ʻae i kahi honua kūpono no nā mea āpau.
JLB: I ka wā o nā kū'ē ma Belarus, ua kākoʻo ponoʻoe i ka poʻe Belarusian i ka hakakā no ka maluhia, ke kūʻokoʻa a me ka pono. ʻO wai ka ʻaoʻao ʻoiaʻiʻo i ke kaua o Rusia ma Ukraine i kēia manawa? Pehea kou manaʻo e pili ana nā koi ʻāina a Rūsia e pili ana iā Ukraine, me ka pili ʻana i ka Crimean Peninsula?
LS: I kekahi mau makahiki aku nei, ua ho'āʻo wau e pane i kāu nīnau ma ke ʻano āu e makemake ai e lohe i kaʻu pane. Akā ʻo koʻu pilina me Pope Francis ua kōkua iaʻu e hoʻomaopopo iaʻu iho he Karistiano, a i ʻole, inā makemake ʻoe, e hoʻomaopopo i ka Kristiano ponoʻī. E pane aku au iā ʻoe me kahi nīnau i ka nīnau: ma ka ʻaoʻao hea ka Pope ma ka hihia o ka luku ʻana i nā mokuʻāina Pope, ma ka hihia o ka naʻi ʻana iā Roma e Garibaldi lāua ʻo Victor Emmanuel? A i ʻole ma ka ʻaoʻao hea i kū ai ʻo Iesū Kristo a me ka lunaʻōlelo ʻo Petero i ka hāʻule ʻana o Ierusalema i ka makahiki 70? ʻO kaʻu manaʻo, ʻaʻole pane ka Karistiano i nā nīnau o ka geopolitics. Akā, ʻaʻole ia ka mākaukau o ka hoʻomana Karistiano. ʻO ka nānā ʻana i ka Kristiano ma ke ʻano he aloha ʻāina ʻaʻole ia he ʻāpana o ka ʻeuanelio. ʻAʻole au e ʻōlelo nei ʻaʻole pono e lilo ke kanaka i mea aloha ʻāina, ʻo kaʻu wale nō kaʻu e ʻōlelo nei ʻaʻole hiki ke huki ʻia ka hoʻomana Kalikiano i loko o ka hihia o ke aloha ʻāina a me nā pono aupuni. Ke hana nei ka Kristiano me nā nīnau no ke ao pau ʻole - ʻoiai ʻaʻole e noho ka Honua a me ka ʻōnaehana solar. No laila, nui ka poʻe i hoʻomaopopo ʻole i ka Pope, makemake lākou e ʻike iā ia ma ke ʻano he kālai'āina, e like me ka nui o kona mau hoa i ʻike iā Kristo. No ka hoka ana ia ia ma ke ano he kanaka kalaiaina, ua kumakaia kekahi poe ia ia, ua hoole kekahi ia ia, a ua makaukau kekahi e kau ia ia ma ke kea. E nana kakou i ka Pope ma ke ano he mea haiolelo i ka Euanelio, aole he kanaka kalaiaina.
[Ua hāʻawi muaʻo Leonid Sevastianov i kona manaʻo pono'ī no ke kaua, e olelo ana mai ka manao Kalikiano, ke kākoʻo nei ia mea he heresy. A ma ʻAukake 30, 2022, ua hoʻopuka ka Vatican i kahi ʻōlelo ʻO ia ka mea: "No ke kaua nui ma Ukraine i hoʻomaka ʻia e ka Russian Federation, ua maopopo a maopopo ʻole nā hana a Pope Francis i ka hoʻopaʻapaʻa ʻana iā ia ma ke ʻano he pono ʻole, ʻae ʻole, barbaric, noʻonoʻo, hoʻopaʻapaʻa a hoʻopaʻi."]
JLB: Hāʻawi mau ʻoe i nā manaʻo iā TASS, ka mea i ʻike ʻia ma waho e like me kekahi o nā waha waha o ka Kremlin propaganda. No ke aha ʻoe e hui pū ai me kēia media kūikawā?
LS: He 3 wale nō ʻoihana nūhou ma Rūsia: TASS, RIA Novosti a me Interfax. ʻAʻohe mea ʻē aʻe. ʻAʻole hiki iaʻu ke kuleana no nā mea ʻē aʻe. Hiki iaʻu ke pane noʻu iho. No ka mea, ʻaʻohe hoʻoikaika politika a me ka hoʻolaha politika i kaʻu mau ʻōlelo.
JLB: Ua ʻike ʻoe iā Patriarch Kirill no ka manawa lōʻihi, ʻoiai ʻo ia ʻo Metropolitan o Smolensk. He aha kāu pilina me ia i kēia manawa? He aha kāu e ʻōlelo ai e pili ana i ka ʻōlelo a Pope Francis ʻo ia ke keiki kuahu a Putin? He aha kāu mau pilina me Metropolitan Hilarion a me ke poʻo hou o DECR Vladika Anthony (Sevryuk) i kēia manawa? Ke hoʻomau nei ʻoe me lākou?
LS: Ua ʻike au iā Patriarch Kirill mai ka makahiki 1995. Ua hoʻouna ʻia au e Metropolitan Alimpiy Gusev, ka luna o ka Russian Old Believers Orthodox Church, e aʻo ma Moscow Theological Seminary ma o Metropolitan Kirill. I ka manawa like, ua hoʻouna mai ka Patriarch iaʻu e aʻo ma Roma ma ke Kulanui Gregorian, ua hele au i laila ma 1999 ma o ke kaiāulu monastic ma Bose, aia ma ka ʻākau o Italia. Ua aʻo au ma Roma me ke kālā o kēia kaiāulu ma lalo o ka mākaʻikaʻi a kona alakaʻi ʻo Enzo Bianchi. A laila ua hoʻomau au i kaʻu aʻo ʻana ma Georgetown University ma Wakinekona ma kahi haʻawina mai ka American Bradley Foundation. Ua hana au ma ke Kulanui o Georgetown ma ke ʻano he kahuna pule, a ma ka World Bank. I koʻu hoʻi ʻana i Moscow i ka makahiki 2004, ʻaʻole wau makemake e hana no ka 'Oihana o waho o Moscow Patriarchate (DECR). Ma kēia kumu, ua kuhi hewa mākou me Metropolitan Kirill, nāna i alakaʻi i kēia hale, ʻo ia ka mea e ʻōlelo ai, hoʻomau ʻia a hiki i kēia lā (ka hoʻomaopopo ʻole). Ma 2009, ma hope o ke koho ʻia ʻana o Metropolitan Kirill i Patriarch a me ke koho ʻana iā Metropolitan Hilarion (Alfeev) i luna o ka DECR, ua hana wau a alakaʻi i ka ʻO Gregory ka Theologian Foundation, nāna i kākoʻo i nā hana o ka DECR a me ka hana ʻana a me ka hoʻihoʻi ʻana i nā hale a me nā hale, o ka All-Church postgraduate and doctoral study, a me kāna mau hana i kēlā me kēia lā. Ma muli o ka ʻoiaʻiʻo ʻaʻole wau i kākoʻo i ka haki ʻana o ka hui ʻana me nā hale pule Helene ma 2018 a ua huhū hoʻi i ka manaʻo kūpono ʻole o ka Moscow Patriarchate e pili ana i ka Old Believers, ua kāpae ʻia ke kālā ma kā mākou ʻaoʻao, a haʻalele wau i ke kumu. Ma 2018, ʻo ka World Congress of Old Believers wale nō i hana ʻia ma ka mōʻaukala, kahi aʻu i hōʻike ai i ka manaʻo o ka World Union. Ua ʻae ʻia kēia manaʻo e ka ʻaha kūkā, a ma 2019 ua hana au i ka hui o ka Ka Hui Kahiko o ka Honua. Mai ia manawa mai, i loko o ke kahua o kēia hui, ua komo au i ka pale a me ka hoʻolaha ʻana i nā Old Believers o ka honua. Ua komo nui au ma Rusia ma ka paipai ʻana i ke kūʻokoʻa hoʻomana no nā mea āpau ma ka home. E pili ana iā Vladyka Anthony (Sevryuk), ke poʻo hou o ka DECR, ʻike maikaʻi wau iā ia, mai kona wā he haumana. ʻAʻole hiki iaʻu ke ʻōlelo i kekahi mea ʻino e pili ana iā ia. ʻIke wau iā ia mai ka ʻaoʻao maikaʻi loa. ʻAʻole ʻo ia i hana ʻino iaʻu a i ʻole kekahi mea aʻu i ʻike ai.
JLB: No ke aha i manaʻo ai ka Pope e kipa mua iā Moscow, ʻaʻole ʻo Kyiv? Ua ho'āʻo aneiʻoe e kūkākūkā me ia i ka hiki ke hele mua i Kyiv, a laila e lawe i ke kūlana o nā mana o Ukrainian i Kremlin, aʻaʻole hoʻi?
LS: Manaʻo wau ʻaʻole koʻikoʻi nui ke kauoha o ka huakaʻi no ka Pope: makemake wale ʻo ia e hoʻohui i ka huakaʻi i nā poʻo ʻelua i loko o ke ʻano o ka huakaʻi hoʻokahi. ʻO ia hoʻi, e hele i Ukraine a me Rusia, a inā pahaʻo ia e komo i Rusia mai ka'āina o Ukraine a iʻole, i Ukraine mai ka'āina o Rusia,ʻaʻole ia he mea nui iā ia. He mea nui ka hele ʻana o nā kipa ʻelua i kahi huakaʻi maʻamau i mea e hoʻoikaika ai i ka mālama maluhia a me ke ʻano kanaka o ka huakaʻi. Manaʻo wau ʻaʻole e huhū ka poʻe Lūkini ke lele ʻo ia i Rusia mai Ukraine.
JLB: Pehea ka nui o ko ka Pope hoolohe ana i kou manao? Pehea ka mea nui iā ia?
LS: Hoʻolohe ka Pope i kekahi manaʻo. A nona, ʻo ka liʻiliʻi o ke kanaka, ʻoi aku ka nui o kona manaʻo. Ua ʻike au i kēia mai koʻu ʻike ponoʻī. ʻO koʻu manaʻo no ia, ua maopopo loa iaʻu i kēia, ʻaʻole i ʻoi aku ka nui o ka manaʻo o Ukrainians a i ʻole kēlā poʻe Belarusian e kamaʻilio pū me ia.
JLB: Hoʻopilikia loa ka ʻohana Ukrainian i nā ʻōlelo a me nā hana a ka Pope, me ka manaʻo e hana nei ʻo ia ma hope o ke kulekele Kremlin. Ua ʻike anei ka pope i ka hoʻoweliweli ʻana e nalowale ka ʻohana Ukrainian ma o kāna hoʻopā ʻana me Moscow?
LS: No ka mea i kapa ʻia ʻo "flirting" o ka Pope, makemake wau e hoʻomanaʻo hou iā ʻoe ʻo ka Pope e pili ana i ka ʻEuanelio, ʻaʻole pili i ka politika. E hoʻomanaʻo i ka hele ʻana o nā haumāna iā Kristo a haʻi iā ia he nui ka poʻe i haʻalele iā ia ma muli o kāna mau ʻōlelo pololei ʻole politika? Ninau mai la o Kristo ia lakou, A o oukou, aole anei oukou e makemake e haalele ia'u? A ia manawa i olelo aku ai o Petero, aole o lakou wahi e hele ai, no ka mea, oia no ka Mesia. Olelo ka Pope no ka Euanelio. A no kēlā me kēia kanaka, nā Lūkini a me nā Ukrainians. Ua kau ʻo Kristo ma luna o ke keʻa, a ma ka ʻākau a me ka hema ona he poʻe ʻaihue. Akā, ʻōlelo kekahi o lākou makemake ʻo ia e noho pū me Kristo, a ʻōlelo kekahi ʻaʻole. Eia ka moʻolelo e pili ana i ka Pope. ʻAʻole hiki ke hoʻohālikelike ʻia ka Pope me George Washington, nā hoahānau Maccabee, Prince Vladimir, Monomakh a me King Stanislaus. Hiki ke hoohalikeia ka Pope me Kristo. A e ninau aku i kana hana e like me Kristo a i ole, e ninau i ka ninau, heaha ka mea a Kristo i hana ai ma kona wahi. ʻAʻole pono ka poʻe olakino i ke kauka, akā ʻo ka poʻe maʻi. ʻO ka ʻeuanelio holoʻokoʻa e pili ana iā ia!
JLB: Ua ʻae anei ʻoe i ka ʻōlelo a ka Pope ʻo Daria Dugina i make he mea hala ʻole i ke kaua? Ua ʻike anei ʻoe iā Daria i kona wā i noho haipule ai i kekahi o nā halepule o ka Ekalesia Orthodox Lūkini? Pehea i lilo ai ʻo ia i mea hoʻolaha o ke kaua?
LS: Ua ike oe, makemake au e pane aku i na olelo e pili ana ia Daria me ka haiolelo a ke Akua i ka mea hana, i hele mai e noi i ke Akua e pepehi i na lawehala nana i hana kolohe i kana kaikamahine. Ua ʻōlelo ka mea hana e hoʻokō ʻia ka pono. Ninau ke Akua: He pono anei ke pepehi i ka poe i pepehi ole i kekahi? ʻO ke Kauoha Kahiko nō hoʻi ka lula tit-for-tat. ʻAʻole pepehi ʻo Daria i kekahi, ʻaʻole ʻo ia i komo i ke kaua ma ka laina mua. Nolaila, he pono ole kona make ana. Ma kēia ʻano, he kanaka hala ʻole ʻo ia i ke kaua. Penei ka pope i olelo ai. ʻAʻole au i ʻike iā Daria. Ma mua o kona make ʻana, he kakaikahi ka poʻe i ʻike iā ia. ʻAʻohe ona mana koʻikoʻi i ka manaʻo o Rusia.
