Intatheli UYesu Bastante, Umseki kunye nomhleli-oyintloko okhoyo weReligión Digital, i-portal yolwazi lwentlalo nonqulo olukhokelayo kwihlabathi ngesiSpanish, wayenethuba lokuqhuba ingcaciso. Udliwanondlebe olunzulu kunye noBawo uManuel Corral, uNobhala woBudlelwane beZiko kuBhishophu Omkhulu waseMexico.
Kule ntetho ibanzi nethatha imizuzu engaphezu kwama-25, ubawo uCorral uphonononga kunye noBastante imeko ekhoyo ngoku yeCawa yamaKatolika eMexico, imingeni ejongene nayo, ngakumbi uhlaziyo olukhuthazwa nguKhadinali uCarlos Aguiar kwintloko ye-archdiocese.
Yincoko egubungela imixholo enomdla kakhulu efana nobudlelwane phakathi kweCawe kunye norhulumente kaLópez Obrador, ukungakhathali kuluntu lwaseMexico, ifuthe lamaqela agcina ubuKatolika, ubhubhane kunye nogonyo, kunye nesicelo sikaLópez Obrador seSpain kunye ICawe icele uxolo ngokoyisa.
Kodwa ngaphezu kwayo yonke into, ludliwano-ndlebe oluvumela ukuba sijonge inkqubo yotshintsho eyenziwa yiCawa yamaKatolika eMexico, ngoncedo lombhishophu omkhulu osondeleyo kuPapa uFrancis, uCarlos Aguiar. IBandla elifuna ukuba kufutshane nabantu, lithathe inxaxheba ngakumbi kunye namarhamente afunde ngakumbi.
Apha ngezantsi kukho ushicilelo olupheleleyo lwale ncoko inomdla nefundisayo.
Udliwano-ndlebe nge-12.09.2021
UJesús Bastante: UManuel Corral yinkolo yeVerbite yaseSpain, kodwa enentliziyo yaseMexico, ochithe isiqingatha senkulungwane phesheya esebenzela iCawe esendleleni. Ngoku, njengoNobhala woBudlelwane beZiko kwi-Archbishopric yaseMexico.
"EMexico bandibiza ngokuba ngu-gachupín ngenxa yokuba ndinesiSpanishi, kwaye eSpain bathi ndine-accent yaseMexico", uchaza ehleka. Uxanduva lobudlelwane phakathi kwe-Archbishopric kunye norhulumente weLópez Obrador, siphonononga kunye noManuel imeko yangoku yeCawe kweli lizwe, i-secularisation, impembelelo yamaqela e-ultra-Catholic kunye neentshukumo ezichasayo zokugonya.
UJesús Bastante: Wazalelwa kwilali yaseZamora.
Utata uManuel Corral: Kwidolophu encinane yaseZamora, kumda wePortugal: Fornillos. Kukwintlambo yomlambo iDuero kwaye benza itshizi ezintle kakhulu kunye newayini ezilungileyo kakhulu apho. Umama, oneminyaka engama-92 ubudala, usahlala apho yaye ndisandul’ ukumtyelela. Ndilapha iiveki ezintathu kwaye ndikulungele ukubuyela eMexico.
UJesús Bastante: Unentetho yaseMexico.
Utata uManuel Corral: EMexico bandibiza ngokuthi gachupín ngenxa yokuba ndinesiSpanish, yaye eSpeyin bathi ndinentetho yaseMexico (ehleka).
UJesús Bastante: UManuel nguNobhala weMexico woBudlelwane beZiko 'ad extra'. Isikhundla esinjalo sibandakanya ntoni kwi-archdiocese enkulu kangaka?
Utata uManuel Corral: UBhishophu Omkhulu uCarlos Aguiar, ekubeni wayekwiNkomfa ye-Episcopal yaseMexico njengonobhala-jikelele, wahlengahlengisa i-ofisi yoonobhala kwaye waqwalasela ukuba oonobhala ababini babeyimfuneko, kungoko 'abongezelelweyo'; omnye wokujongana nemicimbi yemihla ngemihla yedayosisi, (apha kukho noBawo uGarcía wemicimbi yangaphakathi), kunye nam ndincediswa nguBawo uQuintero, owaziwayo kweli phephancwadi, iMercedarian, kubudlelwane bamaziko.
Kubandakanya ntoni oku? Kubudlelwane beziko kufuneka kuhlale kukho ingxoxo. Kwaye loo ngxoxo kufuneka inyaniseke kuba xa singayichukumisi imiba echaphazela abantu, kukho isikhewu. Ngoko ufuna umntu oza kujongana neengxaki zemihla ngemihla zento enye kunye nenye.
UJesús Bastante: Buya kuba njani obu budlelwane noLópez Obrador? Norhulumente?
Utata uManuel Corral: Ekuqaleni yayiyingxoxo… yokungathembani, ndandizakuthi.
UYesu Bastante: Ngokungathembani?
Utata uManuel Corral: Kwakhona. Okwenzekayo kukuba uLópez Obrador, kuyo yonke indlela yakhe ( akazigqali njengowenkolo ethile okanye enye), uthi ungowenkolo yehlabathi. Abanye oobhishophu abazange bayiqonde loo nto, besithi wayengumProtestanti, yaye ulwalamano lwabo lwalungelula. Kodwa ukuya kuthi ga kwinqanaba lokuba kubekho incoko naye, nabaqhubi bakhe kunye noonobhala bakarhulumente, kuye kwaququzelela ukusondelelana kwaye, ngaphezu kwako konke, ukuba ukungazi kunye nokungathembani kuye kwahlanjululwa. Asikabikho ikhulu leepesenti ubudlelwane, kodwa kunokwenzeka ukuba sisebenze naye. Enyanisweni, sisebenza naye kwimibandela echaphazela thina sonke; umbandela wobomi, ngokomzekelo, axhalabele kakhulu oko kwenzekayo.
UJesús Bastante: Bunjani ubudlelwane becawe norhulumente eMexico? Kuba apha, umzekelo, sinezivumelwano ezineminyaka engama-40 ubudala kwaye zilawula yonke into: uncedo kwiMikhosi exhobileyo, kwizibhedlele, izikolo, imicimbi yezomthetho? Kancinci kuyo yonke into.
Utata uManuel Corral: Njengoko usazi, eMexico sineminyaka engama-30 sikho ukususela ekusekweni kobu budlelwane phakathi kweLizwe laseMexico neLizwe laseVatican iCawa emkelwa ngayo njengombutho wonqulo. Yiminyaka engamashumi amabini anesithoba kuphela kwaye bekungelula. EMexico asinayo ikhulu leepesenti lenkululeko yonqulo kuba uMthetho Wemibutho Yonqulo usagxininisa kulawulo, ngokungathi kunjalo. Ukugcina ulawulo lokuba umfundisi wonqulo ungubani, wemvume yoku, yaye maxa wambi kukwakho nokulinganisa okuthile, kuba kucingelwa ukuba ukuze icawa ibe nako ukwenza umngcelele, kufuneka icele imvume kwabasemagunyeni. . Ngokomzekelo, kwizikolo zikawonke-wonke, unqulo alunakufundiswa, yaye alunakufundiswa nakwizikolo zabucala. Kodwa ifaniswe phantsi kwamanye amagama; I-Religious Humanism, njl. Ngoko kukho ukuqatshelwa, ewe, kodwa akukho zivumelwano.
UJesús Bastante: Akukho nkxaso.
Utata uManuel Corral: Akukho nkxaso. Kodwa sizama ukufumana indlela eya phambili.
UJesús Bastante: Ukhumbula iBicentenary yeNkululeko kumazwe amaninzi. Kule meko, uLópez Obrador wayefuna ukuba iCawe kunye neCrown yaseSpain icele ukuxolelwa. Oku kwamkelwa njani yiCawa yaseMexico?
Utata uManuel Corral: ICawe, ngokusemthethweni, ayizange izichaze ngamazwi awayewacela uMongameli. Kwaye xa iintatheli zabuza, wathi: "ICawa sele icele ukuxolelwa ngoPope Francis". UJohn Paul II naye wayicela kwaye andikhumbuli nokuba uBenedict wayicela na.
UJesús Bastante: Into eyenziwa zezi zikhumbuzo kukubonakalisa indlela ehanjiweyo. Imbali ayinakuphinda ibhalwe; sonke senza impazamo, zonke iinkcubeko, zokuzama ukuyibhala kwakhona…. Kodwa unokuzama kuphela ukuqonda okanye ukufumana amanqaku okubonisa.
Utata uManuel Corral: Ingqondo ibikukuba kukho eminye imiba ebaluleke kakhulu ekufuneka ugxininise kuyo kunexesha elidlulileyo apho ungasakwazi ukungenelela, kwaye ukucela uxolo, ebesele uceliwe, bekungasombululi ezi ngxaki zinzima sinazo. Akhange kubekho mpendulo kumazwi kamongameli, nakwezobubhishophu nakumgangatho woluntu, ebantwini basesitratweni.
UJesús Bastante: Ibisisisenzo kwigalari yamazwe ngamazwe. UKhadinali Aguiar wayengomnye woobhishophu abathandathu kunye neekhadinali abathi, kunye noPopu Francis, barekhoda ividiyo phakathi kwentshukumo yokubiza ugonyo lwehlabathi, bekhuthaza abantu ukuba bazibandakanye kumlo ochasene ne-coronavirus eqalekisiweyo. Lo bhubhani usenze ukuba sime ngxi kuwo onke amanqanaba. Ndiyaqonda ukuba uKhadinali Aguiar uqinisekile ngesidingo sokuba sonke sigonywe kwaye sizikhathalele.
Utata uManuel Corral: Kwasekuqaleni nje, xa urhulumente wamisela umlinganiselo wokuvala iicawe, wayethanda ukuthobela nokugonywa. Naye wayengomnye wabokuqala ukugonywa waza wayibhengeza. Yaye uyaqhubeka egxininisa kwintswelo, nanini na enethuba. Uthe xa ethetha esidlangalaleni uye walatha ebantwini ukuba yeyona ndlela yokusisindisa. Ngenxa yokuba kukho intshukumo enamandla kakhulu yokulwa ne-vaccine, kunye nazo zonke iintsomi malunga nayo, kwaye uye wachaza, ngokusebenzayo kunye ne-passively, ukuba akukho nto iphosakeleyo ngokugonywa. Uqinisekile ngale nto kuba ngumbandela obaluleke gqitha.
UJesús Bastante: Kwaye kukwakho neendawo ezichasene nogonyo phakathi kwabefundisi. Kukho amazwe apho oobhishophu kuye kwafuneka baphume baye kuxelela abefundisi ukuba abanakukwazi ukukhusela izikhundla zabachasayo, ukuba sibeka ubomi babaninzi esichengeni, yaye ngaphezu kwabo bonke ubomi babona bangamahlwempu. Ngelishwa, nangona ezi zifo zisichaphazela sonke, thina sihlala kumazwe anenkqubo yezempilo ezinzileyo sidlula kuzo ngendlela eyahlukileyo, kwaye ngamanye amaxesha asiyiqondi.
Utata uManuel Corral: Ndikholelwa ekubeni abahluphekayo khange balifumane ithuba lokufumana ulwakhiwo ebesinalo thina sonke. Kwiindawo ezininzi, umfanekiso womfundisi ubonwa kakhulu kwaye into ayithethayo ihlonitshwa kakhulu. Yiyo loo nto kulapho kuye kwenziwa umnxeba kwaye iKhardinali, kuzo zonke iintlanganiso esiye saba nazo, zombini kunye nezomzimba, igxininisa kakhulu kulo mbandela kuba, ngokuchanekileyo, abantu abangagonywanga bazibhenca bona kunye nabanye. Ke, kufuneka siziphephe ezi ntsomi, kwaye nangakumbi phakathi kwabantu abakhokelayo, ezenkolo nezopolitiko. Khumbula ukuba ngeentsuku zakuqala uMongameli wethu wayengawuhoyanga kangako umba wogonyo, wawunempembelelo kwaye yiyo loo nto abantu bengagonywanga. Kwade kwafika ixesha lakhe. Namhlanje, i-63% yabantu baseMexico bayagonywa.
U-Jesús Bastante: Lo ngumfanekiso olungileyo, ngokuqwalasela amanye amazwe aseLatin America, e-Afrika nase-Asia apho ugonyo luphantsi kakhulu. Kuyinyani ukuba, njengoko uPope esitsho, sonke siyagonywa okanye asizukuphuma kule meko.
Utata uManuel Corral: Kufuneka sinyanzelise. Into endibethayo malunga nee-antivaccinationists kukuba aziniki zimpikiswano. Ziingxelo ezingenasihlahla.
UJesús Bastante: Ukuqhubela phambili, imibuzo emibini komnye: Ungayichaza njani iCawe yaseMexico kwaye yeyiphi iprojekthi ocinga ukuba uKhadinali Aguiar angakhokelela kwiCawe yaseMexico?
Utata uManuel Corral: ICawa yaseMexico ityhubela ixesha lokutshintsha kwimeko yengxaki yonqulo echaphazela imilinganiselo yokuziphatha. Ngenxa yokuba ayisiyonkolo kuphela, kodwa ingokweziko. Onke amaziko asengxakini. Njengoko ibinzana elidumileyo likaRahner lithi: 'ukuba ubumoya bakho abukuniki amandla okuqhubeka, ubuKristu abuyi kuba'. Ndicinga ukuba, ngokubanzi, oobhishophu bayazi kakhulu kodwa besaba kakhulu ukuvula oko, umzekelo, uPapa athethayo. IBandla liyaphuma, konke oku.
UJesús Bastante: NjengeCawa yaseSpain, apho baqhubela phambili ngokucokisekileyo ngenxa yokuba, mhlawumbi, kukho ukwesaba oko kuya kwenzeka ngokulandelayo.
Utata uManuel Corral: Lo ngumbuzo: yintoni eza kwenzeka ngokulandelayo. Nokuba lo Pope unabo ubunkokheli okanye uPope ozakufika uyavala. Yintoni eza kwenzeka. Oko, kwinqanaba jikelele. Kodwa kwinqanaba lendawo, uCarlos Aguiar uneprojekthi ebaluleke kakhulu, iiYunithi zoMfundisi ezidumileyo. Into eyenziwe ngu-Aguiar kule ndawo yeeYunithi zabaFundisi, esele iqalile ukusebenza, kukumanyanisa amarhamente amaninzi; basengamarhamente kodwa abefundisi bahlala kunye ekuhlaleni kwaye kukho ulungelelwaniso oluthile. Bahlala kwindlu apho kukho umnxibelelanisi kwaye amarhamente anxulumeneyo abelana ngeenkqubo ngokungacacanga.
U-Jesús Bastante: Ngandlela-thile luncedo kumbingeleli ngokwakhe, kuba esinye sezibetho zobufundisi ukuba uFrancis ugxeka kakhulu uvela ngokuchanekileyo kulo wedwa onokukwenza uzive uyingqayizivele, unamandla. Ibe akufani nakwabonqulo abaqhele ukuhlala ekuhlaleni nokwabelana.
Utata uManuel Corral: Kubefundisi abasekwa ngamanye amaxesha kunzima kakhulu yaye uCarlos Aguiar uyazi ukuba akunakunyanzelwa. Into awayenzayo ke, kukuxoxa nolutsha kunye nabo bafuna ukwenza ezi yunithi zabefundisi. Kwaye eyokuqala ukuyilwa yiYunithi ye-Episcopal. Oobhishophu abancedisayo, abahlanu kubo, bahlala endlwini.
UJesús Bastante: Ukhokela ngomzekelo.
Utata uManuel Corral: Ngokuchanekileyo. Kwaye bona ngokwabo bathi kuhle kakhulu kuba bafumana ithuba lokwabelana ngesidlo sakusasa kunye nokutya, badibana kwaye bafumana ithuba lokuthandaza. Leyo yenye yezinto. Kwaye enye yeyokuba ukubunjwa kwabaseminarini kubakhuphile emarhamenteni, kukho abafundisi basemina abane okanye abahlanu abahlala kwirhamente enomfundisi nomfundisi, kwaye kufuneka baye eklasini kwisikolo sabefundisi. Kwaye ibanyanzela ukuba babe nonyaka wokujongana namava ohambo lwabo lokuqulunqa; kufuneka baphume baye kusebenza kwiinkampani. Khangela. Into ayifunayo kukuba kukho ulwazi lwenyani, ukubunjwa okuqinileyo kwababingeleli abatsha. Ukuba badibanise kwaye bafumane iingxaki kunye nabantu.
UJesús Bastante: Unxibelelwano oluthe ngqo nenyani.
Utata uManuel Corral: Kwaye kwelinye icala, into esiza kuyenza kukulungiselela utyelelo lomfundisi kumarhamente ukuze bonke abeza kwirhamente bathathe inxaxheba ngendlela evumelanayo. Isinyanzele sonke, njengoko sasisele senze kwiNkomfa ye-Episcopal, kunye nezixhobo ezithile ukuze wonke umntu anike uluvo lwakhe kwaye athathe inxaxheba. Sisakhiwo eso. Kwaye enye into ayenzileyo kukugxila kulawulo, ukuphucula ulawulo lwemithombo.
UJesús Bastante: Kufana nomzekelo wohlaziyo lweCuria olwenziwa eRoma. Ndicinga ukuba kule nakweminye imiba, uAguiar noFrancisco banxibelelana kakhulu.
Utata uManuel Corral: Ndiba noluvo lokuba bathetha rhoqo. Ngoko ke ubeka ndawonye ulawulo ukuze amarhamente asebenze kunye. Kwaye njengoko kungekho nkxaso-mali karhulumente eCaweni apho, uye wenza i-portal miofrenda.com ukuze xa abantu becela inkonzo enjengomtshato, kungabikho ntlawulo, kodwa uvele wenze umnikelo apho. Kwaye wenza enye into entle kakhulu: ukudalwa kweedayosisi ezintathu ezijikeleze isixeko, ezazizizigidi ezilishumi, eshiya i-archdiocese enezigidi ezihlanu ezinesiqingatha kunye nezinye iidayosisi, ezibonakala kakhulu kwindawo nganye, kunye nobhishophu wabo. ukuze alungiselelwe ngcono. Oku kuye kwanceda. Kwaye ngaphakathi kwi-archdiocese ngokwayo, imimandla iye yahlengahlengiswa. Kukho imimandla esixhenxe kwaye entlokweni yayo nganye kukho umfundisi ongumfundisi. Ukuphumeza esi sakhiwo kulula kwaye, njengoko esithi: "Ndiwushiya umhlaba kuye nabani na oza emva kwam".
UJesús Bastante: Enye ifanayo noFrancis, ndiqinisekile ukuba ukwenza zonke ezi nguqu akulula, njengoko kwenzeka eBergoglio, kuba olu hlobo lwesenzo lubangela iingxaki kwaye lubangela ukuba iintshaba okanye ubuntu buvele abangavumelaniyo kwaphela. .
Utata uManuel Corral: Njengayo yonke enye into. Ndikholelwa ukuba ingxaki enkulu ifika xa iingcamango ezahlukeneyo zingajongwa. Kwaye njengayo yonke enye indawo, eBandleni ngokwalo. Siyibona kuPope Francis, obesoloko efuna iingxoxo nabantu kuba engoyiki ukungqubana. UCarlos Aguiar uye wafuna ingxoxo kunye naye, masiyibize, ukuba uyathanda, abachasi abangavumelani naye ngenxa yokuba bathathe indlela eyahlukileyo kakhulu. Eyokuqala, ngabefundisi ababekwirhamente iminyaka engamashumi amathathu. Kukho abachasi, ewe, bobabini ababingeleli behlabathi kunye nonqulo. Ngenxa yokuba iicawa zineenkolelo zazo yaye xa kufikwa kumba wokunikela, zicinga ukuba ziyahluthwa. Siyalibala ukuba singabalawuli nje. Kwaye, phakathi kwaba bachasi, kukwakho namaqela aleleyo. Kukho amaqela aphikisana nomntu ovelayo aze ahluthe iwonga kunye namalungelo athile awayekade enawo.
UJesús Bastante: Kuyenzeka eMexico, kuyenzeka naseMadrid naseRoma, ngokucacileyo. Kodwa umntu unokugxeka kwaye achase; yinkululeko ke leyo yabantwana bakaThixo. Amatyala apho umbuzo ukuya inyathelo ukuya phambili kunye nokucacisa amaqhinga, kwiimeko ezininzi ngokusebenzisa, phantse, imibutho eyimfihlo okanye uthungelwano cwaka ukutyumza.
Utata uManuel Corral: Le mibutho efihlakeleyo oyikhankanyayo, ekhoyo nesebenzisa la maqela ukutshabalalisa iiprojekthi ezihambela phambili, ayiqondi ukuba namhlanje abantu abatsha, iintsapho kunye nabatshatileyo bayayishiya iCawe. Sinokwehla okuphezulu kakhulu kwemitshato eMexico, kungekuphela ngenxa yobhubhane. Abakhange baqonde ukuba siphila kwixesha eliguqukayo yaye, njengoko uJosé María Castillo esitsho, simele silushiye unqulo lwasetempileni siye kunqulo lobuzalwana bukaYesu. Ngaphandle kokushiya enye into kwaye ngaphandle kokushiya enye. Kodwa kula maqela, endingavumelani nawo ngokupheleleyo, ukusebenzisa amandla abo kunye nezicwangciso zabo zokungcolisa okanye ukugxeka umntu, umzekelo kwimeko kaCarlos Aguiar, ngaphandle kweengxabano okanye iinyani. Ukuthetha nje kuba nje ufuna ukuthetha… Akwenzi ngqiqo. Ndidibene nabantu endithe kubo: ndinike ubungqina bokuba le nto uyithethayo iyinyani. Kwaye abazi. Ndiyaqonda ukuba ezi ziphatha zivela kuloyiko lokuphulukana nesidima; la malungelo kunye neempembelelo ababenazo.
UJesús Bastante: Njengoko besithetha ngaphambili, ngenxa yomba wezitofu zokugonya, sikwibutho labantu abahlaselayo ukuze sigcine amalungelo awodwa okanye sihlale sisesichengeni. Kubuhlungu. Ibuhlungu nangakumbi into yokuba kusenzeka phakathi kwabo bazibiza ngokuba ngamaKristu nabazama ukuqhubela phambili ivangeli likaYesu.
Okokugqibela, Manuel, leliphi iBandla ophupha ngalo?
Utata uManuel Corral: Ndiphupha ngeCawa, okokuqala, yabantu abakholwayo ababunjiweyo nabanolwazi. Kuba sonke sinolwazi, kodwa ngamanye amaxesha asinalo ulwakhiwo. Xa ndisithi kubunjwe, ndithetha ukuqaphela ukuzibophelela; ukuba siphila kobu bomi budlulayo yaye, njengoko ndisoloko ndithetha ebantwini: “Mhla uThixo wakubizayo, uya kukubuza ukuba wonwabile okanye ungonwabanga. Ukuba ubomi bakho bunenjongo okanye akunjalo”. Ndiyakholelwa ukuba kufuneka sikhuthaze iCawa engeyiyo yabefundisi kwaye umbingeleli sisixhobo sokuququzelela iindlela, iingxoxo. Ngenxa yesi sizathu, umbingeleli kufuneka abe yindoda eqeqeshiweyo nenolwazi. Kodwa uqeqeshelwe kwizinto ezintsha zehlabathi. Ndiphupha ngeCawe eya kuthi ngenye imini ibekwe kwaye idlulele ngaphaya kwamasiko ukuze ibe yiCawe yabantu. Kufuphi kwiingxaki ezifunyanwa ziintsapho, ulutsha, abasebenzi… Icawe emiliselwe kwihlabathi lentlalontle esiphila kulo. Kwaye koku sifuna umbutho ongeyiyo injongo, kodwa isixhobo 'so'. Nabantu abaqeqeshiweyo; hayi ukuba kufuneka babe ngabefundisi bezakwalizwi, kodwa bamelwe kukubandakanyeka emasimini. Kungoko le nkongolo yenzeka apha kunye nento eyathethwa nguJosé Antonio Rosa: "Asifuni abezopolitiko bamaKatolika, kodwa amaKhatholika kwezopolitiko kunye noluntu". Lowo ngumbuzo. Nantso ke into endiyibona njengeCawe esekiweyo.
Jesus Bastante: Mateyu 25: Iitalente. Ndicinga ukuba kubalulekile ukuqonda uFrancis kunye nokuqonda ukuba, ngokoluvo lwam, kufuneka ibe yindima yabalandeli bakaYesu kuluntu.
Utata uManuel Corral: Ilungile lo nto.
UJesús Bastante: Manuel, kube luvuyo ukuthetha nawe, siza kuqhubeka nokuthetha kwaye sisebenze.
Utata uManuel Corral: Kuhle ukudibana nawe.
