Intatheli UJesu Bastante, Umsunguli kanye nomhleli oyinhloko wamanje we-Religión Digital, ingosi yolwazi lwezenhlalo nenkolo ehamba phambili emhlabeni ngeSpanishi, ube nethuba lokuqhuba i- ngokujulile inhlolokhono kanye noBaba uManuel Corral, uNobhala Wezobudlelwano Besikhungo soMbhishobhi Omkhulu waseMexico.
Kule nkulumo ebanzi ethathe imizuzu engaphezu kwengama-25, uFata Corral ubukeza kanye noBastante isimo samanje seBandla lamaKhatholika eMexico, izinselelo elibhekene nazo, ikakhulukazi izinguquko ezigqugquzelwa uKhadinali uCarlos Aguiar ophethe isifundabhishobhi.
Kuyingxoxo ehlanganisa izihloko ezithakaselwa kakhulu njengobudlelwano phakathi kweBandla kanye nohulumeni kaLópez Obrador, ukucwaswa komphakathi waseMexico, umthelela wamaqembu agcina amaKhatholika, ubhubhane kanye nemigomo, kanye nesicelo sikaLópez Obrador seSpain kanye Bandla ukuxolisa ngokunqoba.
Kodwa ngaphezu kwakho konke, kuyinhlolokhono esivumela ukuthi sibheke inqubo yoshintsho iSonto LamaKatolika eMexico elibhekene nalo, ngosizo lombhishobhi omkhulu oseduze noPapa Francis, uCarlos Aguiar. IBandla elifuna ukuba seduze nabantu, libe neqhaza elikhulu kanye namakholwa afundile.
Ngezansi umbhalo ophelele wale ngxoxo ethokozisayo nefundisayo.
Ingxoxo ngomhlaka-12.09.2021
U-Jesús Bastante: U-Manuel Corral uyi-Spanish Verbite yenkolo, kodwa ngenhliziyo yaseMexico, osechithe ingxenye yekhulu leminyaka phesheya esebenzela iBandla ekuhambeni. Manje, njengoNobhala Wezobudlelwano Besikhungo soMbhishobhi Omkhulu waseMexico.
“EMexico bangibiza ngokuthi gachupín ngenxa yokuthi nginolimi lweSpanishi, kanti eSpain bathi nginendlela yaseMexico,” echaza ehleka. Ubhekene nobudlelwano phakathi koMbhishobhi Omkhulu kanye nohulumeni wase-López Obrador, sibuyekeza kanye noManuel isimo samanje seBandla ezweni, ukucwaswa kwenkolo, umthelela wamaqembu amaKhatholika amakhulu kanye nokunyakaza okulwa nokugoma.
U-Jesús Bastante: Wazalelwa edolobhaneni laseZamora.
Ubaba uManuel Corral: Edolobheni elincane eZamora, emngceleni nePortugal: Fornillos. Kusesigodini somfula i-Duero futhi benza ushizi omuhle kakhulu namawayini amahle kakhulu lapho. Umama, oneminyaka engu-92 ubudala, usahlala lapho futhi ngisanda kumvakashela. Ngibe lapha amasonto amathathu futhi ngilungele ukubuyela eMexico.
U-Jesús Bastante: Unesisho sase-Mexican.
Ubaba uManuel Corral: E-Mexico bangibiza ngokuthi i-gachupín ngenxa yokuthi nginolimi lweSpanishi, futhi eSpain bathi nginendlela yokuphimisa yaseMexico (ehlekayo).
U-Jesús Bastante: U-Manuel unguNobhala Wobudlelwano Bezikhungo wase-Mexico 'ad extra'. Ngabe isikhundla esinjalo sihlanganisani ku-archdiocese enkulu kangaka?
Ubaba uManuel Corral: UMbhishobhi Omkhulu uCarlos Aguiar, njengoba wayeseNgqungqutheleni yama-Episcopal yaseMexico njengonobhala-jikelele, wahlela kabusha ihhovisi likanobhala futhi wabheka ukuthi onobhala ababili babedingeka, yingakho 'bengeziwe'; omunye wokunakekela izindaba zansuku zonke zesifundabhishobhi, (lapha kukhona noBaba uGarcía wezindaba zangaphakathi), kanye nami ngosizo lukaBaba uQuintero, owaziwa yilo magazini, waseMercedarian, ngobudlelwano bezikhungo.
Kuhlanganisani lokhu? Ebudlelwaneni bezikhungo kumele kuhlale kunezingxoxo. Futhi leyo ngxoxo kumele ibe qotho ngoba uma singathinti izinto ezithinta abantu, kuba nesikhala. Ngakho udinga umuntu ozobhekana nezinkinga zansuku zonke zento eyodwa nenye.
U-Jesús Bastante: Bungaba njani lobu budlelwano no-López Obrador? Nohulumeni?
Ubaba uManuel Corral: Ekuqaleni kwakuyingxoxo… yokungathembani, bengizosho.
UJesús Bastante: Ngokungathembani?
Ubaba uManuel Corral: Futhi. Okwenzekayo ukuthi u-López Obrador, kuwo wonke umlando wakhe (akazibheki njengenkolo ethile noma enye), uthi ungowenkolo yendawo yonke. Ababhishobhi abathile abazange bakuqonde lokho, bethi wayengumProthestani, futhi ubuhlobo babungelula. Kodwa ngokwezinga lapho kube khona inkhulumomphendvulwano naye, nabaphathi bakhe kanye nonobhala bombuso, kwenze kwaba lula ukuhlangana futhi, ngaphezu kwakho konke, ukuthi ukungazi nokungathembani kuye kwancipha. Asisenabo ubuhlobo obungamaphesenti ayikhulu, kodwa kungenzeka ukusebenza naye. Eqinisweni, sisebenza naye ezindabeni ezithinta thina sonke; indaba yokuphila, isibonelo, akhathazeke ngayo kakhulu ngalokho okwenzekayo.
UJesús Bastante: Bunjani ubudlelwano besonto nezwe eMexico? Ngoba lapha, ngokwesibonelo, sinezivumelwano ezineminyaka engama-40 futhi ezilawula yonke into: usizo eButhweni Lezempi, ezibhedlela, ezikoleni, ezindabeni zomthetho? Kancane kukho konke.
Ubaba uManuel Corral: Njengoba nazi, eMexico sesineminyaka engu-30 kuphela sikhona kusukela kwasungulwa lobu budlelwano phakathi kweSifundazwe SaseMexico neSifunda SaseVatican iSonto elaziwa ngaso njengenhlangano yenkolo. Yiminyaka engamashumi amabili nesishiyagalolunye kuphela futhi bekungelula. EMexico asinayo inkululeko engokwenkolo engamaphesenti ayikhulu ngoba uMthetho Wezinhlangano Zenkolo usagxile ekuphatheni, ngomqondo ongokomfanekiso. Ukuze kugcinwe ukulawula ukuthi ungubani ungqongqoshe wokukhulekela, wemvume yalokhu, futhi ngezinye izikhathi kubuye kube nokulingiswa okuthile, ngoba kucatshangwa ukuthi ukuze ibandla likwazi ukubamba udwendwe, kufanele licele imvume kuziphathimandla. . Ngokwesibonelo, ezikoleni zomphakathi, inkolo ayinakufundiswa, futhi ayikwazi ukufundiswa ezikoleni ezizimele. Kodwa ifaniswe ngaphansi kwamanye amagama; I-Religious Humanism, njll. Ngakho kukhona ukuqashelwa, yebo, kodwa akukho zivumelwano.
U-Jesús Bastante: Akukho ukwesekwa.
Ubaba uManuel Corral: Akukho ukwesekwa. Kodwa siyazama ukuthola indlela eya phambili.
U-Jesús Bastante: Ugubha iminyaka eyikhulu yenkululeko emazweni amaningi. Kulo mongo, u-López Obrador wafuna ngempela ukuthi iSonto kanye noMqhele waseSpain bacele intethelelo. ISonto LaseMexico lakwamukela kanjani lokhu?
Ubaba uManuel Corral: IBandla, ngokusemthethweni, alizange lizibize ngamagama uMongameli ayewacela. Futhi lapho izintatheli zibuza, wathi: "IBandla selivele licele intethelelo ngoPapa uFrancis". UJohn Paul II naye wayicela futhi angisakhumbuli noma uBenedict wayicela yini.
U-Jesús Bastante: Okwenziwa yilezi zikhumbuzo wukuzindla ngomgwaqo ohanjiwe. Umlando awukwazi ukubhalwa kabusha; sonke senza iphutha, wonke amasiko, lokuzama ukulibhala kabusha…. Kodwa ungazama kuphela ukuqonda noma ukuthola amaphuzu wokuzindla.
Ubaba uManuel Corral: Umqondo wawuwukuthi kwakunezinye izinto ezibaluleke kakhulu okwakumelwe ugxile kuzo kunesikhathi esedlule lapho ungasakwazi ukungenelela, futhi ukucela intethelelo, okwasekuceliwe, kwakungeke kuxazulule izinkinga ezinzima zamanje esinazo lapho. Akuzange kuphendulwe emazwini kamongameli, esikhungweni sobubhishobhi noma ezingeni lomphakathi, kubantu basemgwaqweni.
U-Jesús Bastante: Bekuyisenzo segalari yamazwe ngamazwe. UKhadinali Aguiar wayengomunye wababhishobhi abayisithupha kanye nokhadinali abathi, kanye noPapa uFrancis, baqopha ividiyo phakathi kwenhlangano yokucela ukugonywa kwendawo yonke, bekhuthaza abantu ukuthi bahlanganyele ndawonye ekulweni ne-coronavirus eqalekisiwe. Lolu bhubhane lusilethe ukuma kuwo wonke amazinga. Ngiyaqonda ukuthi uKhadinali Aguiar uqinisekile ngesidingo sokuthi sonke sigonywe futhi sizinakekele.
Ubaba uManuel Corral: Kusukela ngomzuzu wokuqala, lapho uhulumeni ebeka isilinganiso sokuvala amasonto, wayevumelana nokuhambisana nakho nokugonywa. Uphinde waba ngomunye wabokuqala ukugonywa wamemezela. Futhi uyaqhubeka nokugcizelela isidingo, noma nini lapho ethola ithuba. Uma esekhulume esidlangaleni uye waveza abantu ukuthi iyona ndlela yokusisindisa. Ngoba kukhona ukunyakaza okunamandla okulwa nokugoma, nazo zonke izinganekwane ngakho, futhi uye wachaza, ngenkuthalo futhi engenzi lutho, ukuthi akukho lutho olungalungile ngokugoma. Uyaqiniseka ngalokhu ngoba kuyindaba ebaluleke kakhulu.
UJesús Bastante: Futhi kukhona nezikhundla ezimelene nokugoma phakathi kwabefundisi. Kunamazwe lapho ababhishobhi kuze kwadingeka baphumele obala batshele abefundisi ukuthi abakwazi ukuvikela izikhundla eziphikisanayo, ukuthi sibeka izimpilo zabaningi engozini, futhi ngaphezu kwakho konke ukuphila kwabampofu kakhulu. Ngeshwa, nakuba lezi zifo zisithinta sonke, thina esihlala emazweni anohlelo lwezempilo oluzinzile sibhekana nazo ngendlela ehlukile, futhi kwesinye isikhathi asikuqapheli lokho.
Ubaba uManuel Corral: Ngikholwa wukuthi abampofu abakaze balithole ithuba lokuthola ukwakheka esike saba nakho. Ezindaweni eziningi, isibalo sompristi siqashelwa kakhulu futhi akushoyo kuhlonishwa kakhulu. Kungakho-ke kulapho kubizwe khona uKhadinali kuyo yonke imihlangano esike saba nayo, eyeqiniso neyenyama, ugcizelela kakhulu lolu daba ngoba, impela abantu abangagonyiwe baziveza nabanye. Ngakho-ke, kufanele sizigweme lezi zinganekwane, futhi nakakhulu phakathi kwezikhulu zobuholi, kokubili ezenkolo nezombusazwe. Khumbula ukuthi ezinsukwini zakuqala uMengameli wethu wayengayinaki kakhulu indaba yemigomo, yaba nomthelela yingakho abantu bengagonywanga. Kwaze kwafika isikhathi sakhe. Namuhla, u-63% wabantu baseMexico bayagonywa.
U-Jesús Bastante: Lesi yisibalo esihle, uma kubhekwa amanye amazwe aseLatin America, Afrika nase-Asia lapho ukugoma kuphansi kakhulu. Kuyiqiniso ukuthi, njengoba uPhapha esho, sonke siyagonywa noma ngeke siphume kulesi simo.
Ubaba uManuel Corral: Kufanele siphikelele. Okungihlaba umxhwele ngama-antivaccinationists ukuthi awanikezi izingxabano. Ziyizindaba ezingenabufakazi.
U-Jesús Bastante: Siqhubekela phambili, imibuzo emibili kowodwa: Ungalichaza kanjani iBandla laseMexico futhi yimuphi umsebenzi ocabanga ukuthi uKhadinali Aguiar angawuhola weBandla laseMexico?
Ubaba uManuel Corral: IBandla laseMexico libhekene nenkathi yoshintsho lapho libhekene nenkinga yenkolo ethinta izinga lokuziphatha. Ngoba akuyona nje inkolo kuphela, kodwa isikhungo. Zonke izikhungo zisenkingeni. Njengoba ibinzana elidumile likaRahner lithi: 'uma ingokomoya lakho lingakuniki amandla okuqhubeka, ubuKristu ngeke bube'. Ngicabanga ukuthi, ngokuvamile, ababhishobhi bayazi kakhulu kodwa besaba kakhulu ukuvula lokho, isibonelo, uPapa akushoyo. IBandla liyaphuma, konke lokhu.
UJesús Bastante: NjengaseSontweni LaseSpain, lapho beqhubekela phambili ngokuqaphela kakhulu ngoba, mhlawumbe, kunokwesaba okuzokwenzeka ngokulandelayo.
Ubaba uManuel Corral: Lowo ngumbuzo: kuzokwenzekani ngokulandelayo. Ukuthi loPhapha unobuholi noma uPhapha ozofika uyavala. Kuzokwenzekani. Lokho, ezingeni elijwayelekile. Kodwa ezingeni lendawo, uCarlos Aguiar unomsebenzi obaluleke kakhulu, i-Pastoral Units edumile. Okwenziwe ngu-Aguiar kule ndawo yama-Pastoral Units, aseqalile ukusebenza, wukuhlanganisa amapherishi amaningana; basengamapherishi kodwa abefundisi bahlala ndawonye emphakathini futhi kukhona ukuxhumana okuthile. Bahlala endlini lapho kukhona umxhumanisi futhi amapherishi ahlobene abelana ngezinqubo ngokungacacile.
UJesús Bastante: Ngandlela-thile kuwusizo kumpristi ngokwakhe, ngoba esinye sezinhlupho zobufundisi uFrancis azilahla kakhulu sivela ngokunembile kulobu wedwa obungakwenza uzizwe uhlukile, unamandla. Futhi akufani nakwabenkolo abajwayele ukuhlala emphakathini nokwabelana.
Ubaba uManuel Corral: Kubefundisi ababunjwa ngezinye izikhathi kunzima kakhulu futhi uCarlos Aguiar uyazi ukuthi akunakuphoqwa. Akwenza-ke ukuxoxisana nentsha nalabo ababefuna ukwakha lezi zinhlaka zokwalusa. Futhi eyokuqala eyadalwa yi-Episcopal Unit. Ababhishobhi abasizayo, abahlanu kubo, bahlala endlini.
U-Jesús Bastante: Ukuhola ngesibonelo.
Ubaba uManuel Corral: Impela. Futhi ngokwabo bathi kuhle kakhulu ngoba bathola ithuba lokuhlanganyela ukudla kwasekuseni nokudla, bahlangane futhi bathole ithuba lokuthandaza. Leyo ngenye yezinto. Futhi okunye ukuthi ukubunjwa kwabaseminari kubakhiphile ezifundeni, kunabafundi baseseminari abane noma abahlanu abahlala epherishini enomfundisi kanye nomfundisi wesifunda, futhi kufanele baye ekilasini esikoleni sobufundisi. Futhi kuyabaphoqa ukuthi babe nonyaka wokubhekana nesipiliyoni sohlelo lwabo lokuhlela; kumele baphume bayosebenza ezinkampanini. Sesha. Akufunayo ukuthi kube nolwazi lweqiniso, ukwakheka okuqinile kwabapristi abasha. Ukuthi bahlanganise futhi bahlangabezane nezinkinga nabantu.
U-Jesús Bastante: Ukuxhumana okuqondile neqiniso.
Ubaba uManuel Corral: Kanti ngakolunye uhlangothi, esizokwenza ukulungisa ukuhambela komfundisi emapherisheni ukuze bonke abeza epherisheni babambe iqhaza ngendlela yokuvumelana. Kusibophezele sonke, njengoba kade senzile eNgqungqutheleni yama-Episcopal, ngamathuluzi athile ukuze wonke umuntu anikeze umbono wakhe futhi abambe iqhaza. Yilokho ukwakheka. Okunye akwenzile wukugxila kwezokuphatha, nokwenza ngcono ukuphathwa kwezinsiza.
U-Jesús Bastante: Kufana nemodeli yenguquko yeCuria eyenziwa eRoma. Ngicabanga ukuthi kulokhu nakwezinye izinto, u-Aguiar noFrancisco baxhumana kakhulu.
Ubaba uManuel Corral: Ngiba nomuzwa wokuthi bakhuluma njalo. Ngakho uhlanganisa abaphathi ukuze amapherishi asebenze ngokubambisana. Futhi njengoba lungekho uxhaso lukahulumeni eBandleni lapho, usungule ingosi ethi miofrenda.com ukuze uma abantu becela inkonzo enjengomshado, ungakhokhiswa, kodwa uvele wenze umnikelo lapho. Futhi wenza enye into enhle kakhulu: ukwakhiwa kwezifunda-bhishobhi ezintathu ezizungeze idolobha, ezaziyizigidi eziyishumi, kwashiya isifundabhishobhi esinezigidi ezinhlanu nengxenye nezinye izigodi, okuyizimpawu zendawo ngayinye, nombhishobhi wazo. ukukhonzwa kangcono. Lokhu kuye kwasiza. Futhi ngaphakathi kwe-archdiocese ngokwayo, izindawo zihlelwe kabusha. Kunezindawo eziyisikhombisa futhi ekhanda ngalinye kunomfundisi ongumfundisi. Ukuqalisa lolu hlaka kulula futhi, njengoba esho: “Ngishiya inhlabathi kunoma ubani oza emva kwami”.
UJesús Bastante: Okunye okufanayo noFrancis, ngiyaqiniseka ukuthi ukwenza zonke lezi zinguquko akulula, njengoba kwenzeka kuBergoglio, ngoba lolu hlobo lwesenzo ludala izinkinga futhi lubangele izitha noma ubuntu obungavumelani nhlobo. .
Ubaba uManuel Corral: Njengakho konke okunye. Ngikholelwa ukuthi inkinga enkulu ifika lapho imibono ehlukene ingabhekwana nayo. Futhi njengakuyo yonke indawo, eBandleni ngokwalo. Sikubona ngoPhapha uFrancis, ohlale efuna ukuxoxisana nabantu ngoba engesabi ukungqubuzana. UCarlos Aguiar uphinde wafuna inkhulumomphendvulwano naye, ake sikubize, uma uthanda, abaphikisi abangavumelani naye ngoba bathathe indlela ehluke kakhulu. Esokuqala, abapristi asebeneminyaka engamashumi amathathu besesifunda. Kukhona abaphikisi, yebo, kokubili abapristi bezwe nabezenkolo. Ngoba abenkolo banezinkolelo zabo futhi uma kuziwa ekunikeleni, bacabanga ukuthi baphucwa bona. Siyakhohlwa ukuthi singabaphathi nje. Futhi, phakathi kwalaba baphikisi, kukhona namaqembu avamile. Kunamaqembu aphikisana nomuntu oqhamukayo athathe isimo sakhe namalungelo athile abekade enawo.
UJesús Bastante: Kuyenzeka eMexico, kuyenzeka naseMadrid naseRome, kusobala. Kodwa umuntu angagxeka futhi amelane nakho; kuyinkululeko yabantwana bakaNkulunkulu. Izimo lapho umbuzo uwukuqhubekela phambili futhi uchaze amasu, ezimweni eziningi ngokusebenzisa, cishe, imiphakathi eyimfihlo noma amanethiwekhi athule ukuze uchotshozwe.
Ubaba uManuel Corral: Lezi zinhlangano eziyimfihlo ozishoyo, ezikhona futhi ezisebenzisa lamaqembu ukubhidliza amaphrojekthi aqhubekela phambili, aziqondi ukuthi namuhla intsha, imindeni kanye nabashadile bayaqhela eBandleni. Sinokwehla okuphezulu kakhulu kwemishado eMexico, hhayi nje ngenxa yalolu bhubhane. Abazange baqonde ukuthi sisenkathini yoshintsho futhi, njengoba uJosé María Castillo esho, kumelwe sisuke enkolweni yethempeli siye enkolweni yobuzalwane bukaJesu. Ngaphandle kokushiya enye into futhi ngaphandle kokushiya enye. Kodwa kulawa maqembu, engingavumelani nawo ngokuphelele, ukusebenzisa amandla awo kanye namasu awo ukuhlambalaza noma ukuthunaza umuntu, isibonelo icala likaCarlos Aguiar, ngaphandle kwezingxabano noma amaqiniso. Ukukhuluma nje ngenjongo yokukhuluma… Akunangqondo. Ngike ngahlangana nabantu engithe kubo: nginike ubufakazi bokuthi okushoyo kuyiqiniso. Futhi abazi. Ngiyaqonda ukuthi lokhu kuziphatha kubangelwa ukwesaba ukulahlekelwa isikhundla; la malungelo namathonya ababenawo.
U-Jesús Bastante: Njengoba besikhuluma ngaphambili, ngenxa yendaba yokugoma, sisemphakathini ohlasela abantu ukuze silondoloze amalungelo noma sihlale sigqamile. Kuyadabukisa. Kuyadabukisa kakhulu ukuthi kwenzeka phakathi kwethu esizibiza ngamaKrestu esizama ukuqhubekisela phambili ivangeli likaJesu.
Ekugcineni, Manuel, iliphi iBandla ophupha ngalo?
Ubaba uManuel Corral: Ngiphupha iBandla, okokuqala nje, labantu abavamile abamisiwe nabanolwazi. Ngoba sonke sinolwazi, kodwa kwesinye isikhathi asinalo ukwakheka. Uma ngithi kwakhiwa, ngiqonde ukuqaphela ukuzinikela; ukuthi sikulempilo edlulayo futhi, njengoba ngivame ukusho kubantu: “ngosuku uNkulunkulu ekubiza ngalo, uyokubuza ukuthi wawujabule noma ungajabulile. Ukube ukuphila kwakho kwakunenjongo noma cha”. Ngikholelwa ukuthi kufanele sikhuthaze iBandla elingelona abefundisi nokuthi umpristi uyithuluzi lokuhlela izindlela, izingxoxo. Ngenxa yalesi sizathu, umpristi kufanele abe yindoda eqeqeshiwe futhi enolwazi. Kodwa uqeqeshelwe amaqiniso amasha omhlaba. Ngiphupha iBandla ukuthi ngelinye ilanga liyobe libekwe futhi eliyodlula imikhuba ukuze libe iBandla labantu. Eduzane nezinkinga imindeni, abantu abasha, abasebenzi ababhekana nazo… IBandla elakhiwe emhlabeni wenhlalo yabantu esiphila kuwo. Futhi kulokhu sidinga inhlangano okungeyona inhloso, kodwa ithuluzi 'lo'. Nabantu abavamile abaqeqeshiwe; hhayi ukuthi bafanele babe ngabafundisi bezenkolo, kodwa ukuthi bafanele bazibandakanye emikhakheni. Ngakho-ke le ngqungquthela eyenzeka lapha nalokho uJosé Antonio Rosa akusho: "Asifuni osopolitiki abangamaKhatholika, kodwa amaKhatholika kwezombusazwe nasemphakathini". Yilowo mbuzo. Yilokho engikubona njengeBandla elakhiwe.
UJesu Bastante: Mathewu 25: Amathalenta. Ngicabanga ukuthi kubalulekile futhi ukuqonda uFrancis nokuqonda ukuthi, ngokombono wami, yini okufanele ibe indima yabalandeli bakaJesu emphakathini.
Ubaba uManuel Corral: Kulungile.
UJesús Bastante: Manuel, kube yintokozo ukukhuluma nawe, sizoqhubeka nokukhuluma nokusebenza.
Ubaba uManuel Corral: Kuhle ukukubona.
